A Game

[melannen]

1. RE: current events in Homestuck:

So "all ships are canon" + "shipping is cancelled for 2013" + trickster mode = 36-person group marriage, y/y/mfy? :D

2. Speaking of how all stories with romance in them should end with BIG GROUP MARRIAGE, Diane Duane tumbled about the canon YW/ST crossover, and now her fandom has suddenly realized OH HEY YW CROSSOVERS! They are all canon! :D

So let's play a game that I play sometimes in my head:

1. Pick one of your current fandoms.
2. Decide which characters in it are Wizards and/or carriers for Powers.
3. Profit!

Here's mine. Come argue about them with me in the comments! (Or post your own!)

Homestuck: All player characters are wizards. In fact, the Oath is hidden somewhere in the license agreement for Sburb; the game is one long Ordeal. (If you click through the license without reading it, or you use a pirate copy with the licenses stripped off, you may come into your powers a bit later than everyone else or not realize until too late what you've signed up for, but they're still all wizards. Or were, until Lord English gave himself wholly to the Lone Power.) Hussie's a wizard too. Dad isn't. The carapaces don't have wizards until the Game is over, and then most of the Exiles usually end up taking the Oath (and making a Choice.) The consorts don't Choose until after their Heroes appear, either, although they do have people who act in the role of wizards (like dogs had before Ponch.)

Frontier Wolf: Hilarion is a wizard, obviously, as are a higher-than-normal proportion of the other Frontier Wolves. So is Cunorix (but not Connla, and as the Britons are astafrith, it's another point of rivalry between them.) Alexios's uncle and mother are wizards too, and so was his father (that's how his parents met - his uncle and father were wizarding partners). Alexios himself, though, reads to me as someone who's lost his wizardry. I don't know why. It might have been even before Abusina, maybe. I don't know if he ever gets it back, either. The Romans are mostly sevarfrith, and that makes it harder.

(In Eagle of the Ninth, they're all wizards. All of them. Even Cub.)

Avengers: Avengers is haaard.

Okay, so: Tony isn't. He's the only Avenger who isn't, in fact. But he doesn't have enough faith in anything outside himself (he might carry more than a touch of that Power who stole the knowledge of metal-working, though.) JARVIS is a wizard though, obviously, the first wizard of his kind; he hasn't had to Choose yet. Yinsen was. Rhodey is. Obie may have been once, but he was Overshadowed and lost long ago; by the time we meet him, he belongs fully to the Lone Power. Pepper and Happy, I think, aren't.

Coulson is. Clint is. Natasha is, though she came to her wizardry late (or maybe had it early but was made to forget it, again and again and again, until Clint gave it back to her for good.) They're wizarding partners too of course. Fury was a wizard when he was very, very young, but he handed back his Oath a long, long time ago, and doesn't regret it (he knows all about wizardry still, though.)

Bruce is a wizard; when he's out walking the world, he's usually on errantry. So's Betty. Hulk isn't. Or, well, Hulk isn't yet.

Steve's a wizard. Howard Stark was, but lost his wizardry at some point after Steve knew him, and handled it poorly. Peggy I suspect wasn't. Erskine wasn't, but he had friends who were, and knows a wizard when he sees one. Bucky I can't decide about! (Maybe he was a wizard too, but he and Steve went on Ordeal separately, never told each other, and never realized they both were?)

Darcy, Jane, and Selvig are all wizards; the wormhole project is at least half a wizardly intervention, although there really ought to be more cats involved. The Asgardians are tricky, because Asgard is much closer to Timeheart than Earth is, and it's very easy for them to slip into and out of roles as incarnations of Powers, without realizing it; wizardry has a different meaning to such beings. (Unless you are Thor and just don't think about it that hard.)

The Thick of It: Ahahahaha. Phil's a wizard. Jamie was and lost it, but in a way where he got to remember. Sam is. Julian is. ...I think that may be it. Malcolm shares headspace with a Power, but I'm not sure which one. It may not be sure which one.

Comments

[ellen_fremedon]

Natasha is, though she came to her wizardry late (or maybe had it early but was made to forget it, again and again and again, until Clint gave it back to her for good.)

Oh, ow. I could really see that.

[melannen]

It may have been one of those odd and excessively extended Ordeals...

Obligatory Tolkien/LotR Crossover is Obligatory

[kittydesade]

The only reason Thorin hasn't/won't take the Oath is because he's still unsure if it conflicts with his Princely/Kingly duties.

Fili and Kili totally took the Oath. Together. In unison. The quest is their Ordeal.

Balin took the oath years and years and years ago. Dwalin eventually caught up with him.

If Bofur took the Oath he'd never ever ever ever tell anyone. Bombur took the Oath and is one of the best damn technicians out there. Bifur doesn't just speak Khuzdul and that's all there is to say about that.

Ori keeps looking at Fili and Kili and wondering quietly if it'll ever be his turn. Patience, young one. Nori hasn't taken the Oath but he, like Tony in some ways, shares brainspace with some Power. Dori... not sure on, but he has some idea of wizardry.

Bilbo is trying to deal with the Oath following him around going 'hem hem' all the time. When he gets back home to the Shire he finds himself writing the goddamn thing instead of his memoirs or anything else useful like that. He doesn't take it until he gives the ring to Frodo, though. In some ways because he doesn't feel worthy. Even if he doesn't know why.
And in some ways because bringing that much power within him to the Lone Power's attention is a bad idea.

Gandalf, naturally, has taken the Oath. By which we mean is a Power. Ditto Galadriel and Elrond, though Elrond is more the sort of wizard who took the Oath and found himself timesharing with a Power. And then grumbled about it a whole lot until things settled down after a couple centuries.

Oin took the Oath, and lost his hearing on the Ordeal. Gloin took the Oath. That's how he met his wife.

Re: Obligatory Tolkien/LotR Crossover is Obligatory

[melannen]

Hah! I can't argue with you on most of these because I haven't seen the Hobbit movie and could never keep the dwarves straight in the book. :P

Gandalf is definitely a Power. The question is, which Power...? And yes to Elrond and Galadriel (Deagol and Smeagol were wizards once, too.)

I tend to think Bilbo took the Oath when young, but Hobbit wizardry tends to be a quiet helpful sort of wizardry that involves very little gallivanting around and fighting dragons, and besides big showy interventions are for kids who are still overflowing with power, he's already too old for that sort of thing surely!!!

Re: Obligatory Tolkien/LotR Crossover is Obligatory

[lireavue]

*sighs, tags in with more chatlogs* I hope melannen is proud of distracting us for a solid half hour with this!

Frodo hasn't taken the Oath and has no idea about wizardry because Bilbo was very careful to keep it that way. This creates SO MANY PROBLEMS FOR SAM, who of course has.

Legolas has because Thranduil ... has but forgot his Oath, and Legolas wants to make up for it somehow. Gimli has, and did so with his father's full awareness/knowledge base.

Merry and Pippin take their Oaths and go on their Ordeals concurrent with the points you'd expect in the books.

Aragorn has similar issues to Thorin, but ultimately decided it only supported his responsibilities. Arwen has, naturally, and is one of the best damn Valar at weaving (sometimes literally) protection spells out there. (You cannot tell me the big deal they make about the flag is for nothing.)

Boromir has no idea what this wizardry thing is on about. Faramir took the Oath in a fit of well I have to amount to SOMETHING. Denethor is so thoroughly the Lone Power's it's not even funny. He really, really tries not to be, but. No. He might have taken the Oath once, actually, and then fallen. Probably during his Ordeal. Which is what turned him to the Lone Power, self-loathing at having fucked it up.

Rosie goes on Ordeal while Sam's away, during Saruman's harrowing of the Shire. Which is how they actually make a good pair once he gets back. Frodo, I think, never does take the Oath, though he eventually becomes aware of wizardry.

Grima really wanted the Oath to come for him and it never did. Eowyn took her Oath very, very late. Sometime in the Houses of Healing, because of Merry, who had just completed his Ordeal. But she had to get through the bit with the Witch-King before she could hear any sound of the Oath knocking over the Lone Power. Most of the rest of the Rohirrim are kind of "wizardry eh?" though Theoden took his Oath once, nearly forgot it, but remembered right at the end.

And then we ran out and were down to Powers, because apparently all of them reside in Middle-Earth.

[petra]

An addendum to your The Thick of It thoughts: Stewart Pearson is a wizard. He's just astronomically bad at translating his thoughts from Speech to English.

And if anyone is an avatar of entropy round that place, it's Oliver Reeder.

[melannen]

I was wavering on Stewart. He's either a Wizard or a Power, def. (But then again I have a long-standing, non-YW-related conviction that Stewart Pearson is God, so.)

....I think there are a lot of avatars of entropy round that place. Ollie is definitely one of them. (Ollie is a possibility for someone who had wizardry but screwed it up and is working for the Lone One now, actually.)

[thatyourefuse]

Freddie and Bel (of The Hour) definitely are wizards (she's rated a lot higher than him, though), and have been partnered up for long enough that they're starting to get itchy about it. So are Sissy and Kiki; the latter is plausibly young enough (18? 19?) for S2 to have been her Ordeal, and Mr. Cilenti makes a very good Lone Power.

I am not sure whether it's Lix, Hector, or Randall who's Power-ridden, now I come to think of it.

ETA: AND MARNIE. Marnie is absolutely a wizard. There is no other explanation for how she gets her eyeliner to do that. Hector just hasn't noticed.

[melannen]

See at some point I will get around to watching this show, and then I will go "But there are no wizards or Vor or rock musicians in it! I'm so confused!" :P

[sineala]

Frontier Wolf

*sobs* You want me to write ALL THE FIC, don't you, you evil person.

(Obviously Alexios has to learn not to be a failure at Castellum and get his wizardry back -- the run south is, like, the world's worst second Ordeal, although who knows why the Powers decided he needed another one, oh God, maybe Abusina was the first one...)

[melannen]

I'm sorry, have we spoken before? OF COURSE I want you to write ALL THE FIC.

(I actually think Alexios may have originally traded his wizardry away as part of a spell, as the price for a successful intervention. And then he never quite managed to find his balance again, and sort of bumbled through life, failing at everything important to him, feeling like half of himself was missing. The Frontier Wolves, who consist entirely of wizards and former wizards, help him find that balance again, and teach him that losing something doesn't mean losing everything, doesn't even necessarily mean losing it forever.)

[ambyr]

Hmm, Buffy:

Buffy isn't a wizard, though she has a Power riding her.

Willow and Tara went on successful Ordeal together; Willow then lost her wizardry during S6. She was later offered a chance to regain it but turned it down, because she doesn't trust higher powers in general (or herself). In Middle Kingdoms terms, what she practices now is sorcery, not blue fire.

Giles is not a wizard; the Eyghon affair was an Ordeal that he failed horribly. It really bothers him that Willow turned down her second chance. Jenny was a wizard.

Wesley isn't a wizard; his father would have been profoundly against him becoming one even if he was offered the opportunity.

Drusilla was a wizard before she was sired; whether her wizardry would come back if she was re-ensouled is a theological question for the ages that more than one Watcher has written their thesis on.

Cordelia is, of course, offered wizardry fairly late in life and takes it. Doyle was a wizard; he never told Angel, or Cordelia for that matter, and sometimes she really wishes he was still around to help her work through things.

Dawn is a wizard. She just doesn't know it yet.

[melannen]

This is almost completely different from what I would have come up with, and yet I think I agree with all of it!

(Faith is a wizard. She had a horrible and protracted and incredibly messy Ordeal, but she came through it in the end. Slayers' Ordeals are usually at least that horrible, which is why few of them have been wizards. Or at least, few of them were wizards for long. Robin's a wizard, too. So is Gunn.)

[amaresu]

I'd say Buffy was an Abdal. The fact that she's the Slayer just makes it really easy to not let the whole Abdal thing slip in conversation.

[sylleptic]

I like this game! There's a canonical blink-and-you'll-miss-it Doctor Who crossover, too, right?

How does one deal with canons with conflicting conceptions of wizardry? I'm thinking about the Dresden Files, for instance, and I'm pretty sure Hendricks is a wizard, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Also, I love your Avengers ones.

[melannen]

Yep, there sure is!

There are two ways of dealing with conflicting conceptions of wizardry: if they're close enough to YW's concept, you fudge it, and say it's wizardry under Oath, just it works a little differently in that universe. Or you take in the Tale of the Five rules, and say that there's Wizardry, which is YW-style stuff/wreaking, and then there's Sorcery, which is just doing magic. Or you say the whole place is Overshadowed, and all wizardry has been distorted by the Lone Power. :D

When I play with Dresden Files, I go with Option Two, and separate the wizardry stuff Harry does from Oath wizardry. The White Council is not entirely aware that there's another whole organization of wizardry operating right under their noses, although some of the White Council wizards are also under Oath (Rashid the Gatekeeper and Luccio, I'm thinking particularly) and some of the others are aware without being sworn (Eb, for example.)

I'm not really sure who else is a wizard, though, except Hendricks, definitely. And probably Malcolm Dresden. And the Knights of the Cross, almost always (Murphy is going to take her Oath really, really late, if she ever gets around to it.) And Charity Carpenter used to be but gave up her Wizardry at the same time she gave up her wizardry, but probably at least a couple of her kids are.

Harry, on the other hand, is mostly mixing it up directly with the Powers-that-be, who are all assholes in this universe. :P I think possibly he was meant to be under Oath, but on their Ordeal, he sacrificed his Wizardry so that Elaine could live and keep hers. So the Powers were forced to give him access to Soulfire directly instead. Possibly his wizardry is locked away somewhere in the mess that is the inside of his head, and he'll regain it completely at the apropos moment.

[rymenhild]

Jean Valjean is a very late-blooming wizard -- the Bishop administered the Oath to him, long after Valjean's adolescence was over. He never talks about it. Ever. But he's sworn, in Life's name and for Life's sake.

I feel like there should be one other wizard somewhere in the Les Miserables world. I think it might have been Gavroche.

In the AU I like to live in, where Cosette has some personality, Cosette is also a wizard. She is busy doing wizardly secret things and traveling to other planets while Valjean thinks she's staying in the nunnery keeping his secrets.

Valjean and Cosette don't find out about each other's wizardry until Valjean is dying, of course.

[melannen]

I like all of this! Especially Cosette!

I feel like maybe a couple of the other revolutionaries might have been wizards? Wizardry doesn't automatically keep you from being faily in other ways. Of course my Les Mis knowledge comes mostly from memorizing the soundtrack + occasionally poking at the Brick (and what everybody online has been posting lately) so I can't actually tell them apart.

[petra]

I'm quite sure Enjolras has a Power riding him.

Combeferre ought to have been a wizard, and really is an ideal candidate for the Oath, but somehow things went awry.

Random fandoms you're not in...tra la la

[amaresu]

Now I want the MCU fic where the Avengers face off against the Lone Power and Tony is left confused. Especially when Steve formally greets the enemy.

And I'm think of who would and wouldn't be wizards in St. Trinian's. I'm thinking Annabelle came to it late, maybe coming across a manuel early on but not taking the oath until much later. Kelly is probably one and went through her Ordeal her first year at St. Trinian's, possibly with Polly. Chelsea was given the opportunity, but turned it down. I think there are several bets going as to whether or not Tara and Tania will be offered the Oath.

The Losers I'd say only Jensen and Cougar are wizards. They became partners after being assigned to the same unit. Cougar was starting to become Overshadowed before Jensen showed up. Oh, and maybe Roque was a wizard, but lost it after Bolivia and that's why he did what he did. I like the idea of wizards in the military.

Cal Leandros: Niko is an Abdal if he's anything. Robin was one of the Pucks first wizards, but he gave it up a long time ago. Now that Cal is starting to lose some of his self-loathing he's offered the Oath much to the horror of all the other wizards who've had the misfortune of meeting him. Barring Promise who is a wizard and thinks it's a wonderful idea.

Trying to figure out how to make Wheel of Time work. I'm thinking wizardry pretty much disappeared during the War of Power. There was maybe a wizard or two during the 3rd age, usually when Ishamael was pulling loose of the Bore, but they worked alone and without much guidance. The 4th age brings wizardry back now that a lot of the wounds from the end of the 2nd age are healed. Rand had/has some sort of Power riding him, obviously. Nynaeve will be offered the Oath. Olver as well.

Re: Random fandoms you're not in...tra la la

[melannen]

I saw your subject line and went "oh, I bet I know at least a bit about one of them," but, nope, you've stumped me. :P

Tony would either pick it up really fast (and be slightly miffed that JARVIS kept a secret from him) or be completely in denial about the whole thing forever. Probably option one! (I guess it's possible that JARVIS told him right after he took the Oath and they went and did some research together, actually.

...oooh, I wonder if JARVIS's Ordeal was while Tony was captive with the Ten Rings...)

Re: Random fandoms you're not in...tra la la

[petra]

I love the image of Polly and Kelly on Ordeal together as first years. That's beautiful.

Also of Jensen easing Cougar out from being Overshadowed, one charming non sequitur at a time.

[beccaelizabeth]

I'd disagree about Tony because wizardry is knowing the programming language of the universe. (Faith isn't relevant if you know how it all works.) And ability to create sentient life with the right words is one of his distinguishing features. So he came to wizardry real early, but then there were pressures both familial and commercial, and after his ... everyone died he got bitter and gave up on the oath and went to build things that kill people a lot. So it all faded in his head to being just his naive dreams of what really good code could really do (or turned into D&D camp?). Except he still had Dummy and JARVIS and could talk to them in their own language, which was like a stripped down version of the Speech cause if Dummy was always Dummy he made voice controlled possibly sentient AI in the 80s and that's not plain tech. But for a lot of years he was looking at the world then actively drowning out the little voice of maybe you could fix this.

Then there was the cave.

And then I don't know if Tony remembered his wizardry or just all the feelings that went with it. It's kind of more interesting if he's still forgotten, but he's using Speech in the way he talks to JARVIS and codes and designs the suit. Stuck somewhere in between, no manual, not knowing there are others, but with enough echoes of knowledge to do spectacular things. But if wizardry only lives in a willing heart, he just got real willing again.



The others... Natasha being made to forget is story and a half. That's a good one. They'd keep trying to wipe out her name and put a new one in, and she'd keep trying to keep something back and write herself.
And the bit about Asgard and Timeheart seems right.
But I feel like the ones with known superpowers have them instead of wizardry. So Steve might be a result, but not a wizard. If he was a wizard he would know how to serve without having to pick up a gun, he could get himself out to the war and make a difference a lot of ways, he wouldn't have been so dead set on getting into the army. Carrying a power around without having a clue though, that I could see.
Hulk as a wizard... Hulk is a lot younger than Bruce. Bruce would be puny in comparison. It's kind of LOL scary.
Wizardry is a more diversified toolkit than most superheroes use. And there's more ways to serve than to be wizards.

Coulson's the most obvious wizard because he's subtle and just talks to people most of the time... and then faces off with giant killer robots and comes out of it unruffled. He'd like to have something up his sleeve.



I read the discussion of Tony's Name and had a horrible sinking feeling Tony would, like, reflexively try and rewrite his own code. With as much care as working on JARVIS, sure, but of course he'd want to upgrade himself. That would be like the first thing he'd do. And if other people were asking him the questions, he'd lie like magazine interviews. That shell has way too much practice. So one way or another his Name could end up kind of a mess.
... maybe Extremis is what happens when he finally rewrites himself...

[melannen]

I can see Tony as someone who got his wizardry early and then lost it early, definitely! And you're right, Tony using the Speech when he programmed his AIs (and still using a pidgin-speach to talk to them) makes a lot of sense.

I think I just have him coded in my mind as the one who doesn't have magic powers, and my first instinct is to keep it that way, to keep him as someone like Carmela who's really good at using wizardry as a tool and working in tandem with wizards, and has some abilities, but isn't a wizard proper (of course, Carmela may get the Oath yet...) If you posit Howard and Obie as both being failed wizards, he'd have grown up around the remnants of wizardry and magic without really knowing what it means...

And OMG, yes, Tony's Name. That would be such a mess.

RE Steve: I dunno. I was going on the fact that his childhood was pretty much a stereotypical wizard's childhood (lots of staying home with books, standing up to bullies when he has no chance...) I don't think 'wanting to be a soldier' is incompatible with wizardry, especially in the milieu of the early '40s (especially given that this whole post was inspired by DD posting about wizards in the military.)

And OMG, Bruce and Hulk are both wizards but Hulk is a lot younger so he's way, way more powerful? That works too well.

[kaz]

I admit it's been a while since I read YW, so I'm not sure I have the right idea, but...

Silmarillion:

As mentioned above, Fëanor failed his Ordeal. None of his sons swore the Oath - any tendency towards wizardry was subsumed into filial piety and loyalty to, you know, the other Oath. (Although it is possible that it is being offered to Maglor now, looong after everything went to hell. He is having none of it.) Celebrimbor, I think, went for it; he had a lot of nervous questions about exactly how binding this is and unintended consequences, but in the end the idea of fighting against loss and having the power to do *good* to make up for his family was too appealing. Alas, he failed his Ordeal too.

Not too many of the Noldor leaving Aman were wizards, I think. Finrod definitely was (Finarfin too, for that matter) - I can just see him trying to help the early humans with their Choice! Turgon may have been? but if he was he lost his way. Same goes for Orodreth. Some came to it later, during their time in Middle-earth - Fingon and Fingolfin, perhaps? Galadriel came to it very late - in the Second Age, I think, after Ost-in-Edhil had fallen and when she was considering Nenya. Gil-galad was, as well.

Not sure about the Sindar. Thingol wasn't, I don't think, and I don't see Lúthien (or Beren, for that matter) although I could be convinced otherwise. Celeborn? Quite possibly. And Círdan is the wizardliest wizard that ever wizarded. He's so old he's lost almost all his power, but makes up for it in wisdom.

Túrin... failed his Ordeal. There's been a lot of that happening. Tuor's a wizard, though. As are Idril, Eärendil, Elwing and Elrond - there is a certain family tradition here! The whole Kinslaying at Sirion + begging help from the Valar thing may have been Elwing and Eärendil's Ordeal.

Puella Magi Madoka Magica:

...considering the reasoning behind magical girls, I am wondering if they're, like, bizarro alternate universe wizards (or overshadowed as hell?). Alternatively, possibly the problem in this series is in fact that there are no wizards around to stop this shit. Any other ideas?

[melannen]

I only know vague things about Madoka Magica and it's surprisingly hard to spoil oneself for the DARK SECRET in that series, but yeah, it really sounds to me like it's a world where the Lone Power has managed to twist the concept of wizardry all to hell. Probably as a result of a botched Choice a long time ago. :/ There are a lot of worlds like that out there, sadly.