be that girl

[melannen]

I am deeply amused that my last post had some neat music and meta, and a link to a filk project, and a dozen panels of fanart, but 80% of the feedback was about the sketch of AU Rachel in déshabillé.

SO let's talk about AU RPS girlsex, yesno? :D

I have a file that's been sitting on my desktop for about six months, entitled "Thirteen Ways Rachel Maddow (never) Had Lesbian Sex With Keith". I started it way back in February, after the big meta discussion about the ethics of 'shipping a real-life lesbian with a (presumably) straight man - the f_w post that rounded it all up has been deleted, but the start of it (more or less) was my comment here about Rachel/Keith and genderswap in havocthecat's journal. So Rachel, Keith, and genderfuckery, yes.

I have been slowly adding to the file in bits and bobs ever since, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm never going to write these stories (though if I did write one out full-length, it would be either #5 or #13. Or #10 and #11. Or #8 and #9. Or...)

Anyway! Yes, I totally love the story-sketches in that file and wish they existed full length: the reason I will never write them (besides my general inability to finish fic) is that I have come to realize that I still have limits when it comes to RPS. I'll read anything (well, theoretically: large sections of RPS still bore me); I'll draw anything (that I'm willing to draw in any other live-action fandom, anyway, there are limits to where I'll go with real peoples' bodies even if they're playing other people); I'll write genfic and AUs and really mild 'ship stories and crossover AUs set in an entirely different world. But when it comes to writing sex between real live people who have their own lives and know how to use the internet -- even under the safety net of "things that never happened" - I just squick myself when I sit down to write.

SO! Anyway! I am not writing the 13 ways Keith/Rachel lesbian sex stories. But the file as sitting on my desktop is around a thousand words anyway. And it has fanart. And a fanmix. That have also been sitting on the hard drive for months. So I'm just going to post it all. Yay?


Thirteen Ways Rachel Maddow (never) Had Lesbian Sex With Keith Olbermann
~1,000 words, pg-13 for having sex in but not being a real story, many different variations on lesbian sex and Rachel and Keith and co. Warnings for crack and for how someone else needs to actually write these things out. Everything on this list - from the bodyswap to the time travel - is canon at least in TCR-verse, except for the sex pollen, but if anyone had some sex pollen, it would be Anderson.

• 1. Somehow, This Is All Stephen Colbert's Fault...but Rachel finds herself being interviewed on Jon Stewart's show, and the conversation turns to being out and how she does and doesn't use that as part of her media persona, and she kind of says on-air that she'd probably make an exception for Keith if she were single, but on the drive home Susan calls her and says a) that was kind of cruel considering Keith's been in love with her for years, and b) also, Susan would totally make an exception for Keith too, hint hint. And, well, apparently *everybody except Rachel* knows that Keith is in love with her. And Susan's birthday is coming up. So she brings him home for a weekend. It was a very fun weekend. (It's still Stephen's fault somehow.)
• 
  
• 2. That time at the MSNBC holiday party, with Ana. (Okay, that was more lesbian sex for Keith than lesbian sex with Keith. But everybody should have a Christmas wish come true once in awhile. And they let him watch, even if he didn't get to touch, so it counts!)


• 3. Making out in the club. (See, there's this gay club Keith and Rachel go to sometimes after work, just the two of them, when Rachel's not safe to be in an empty apartment by herself but not up for anything much. They usually get a table in a corner and make fun of the dancers and get only mildly tipsy. But then Keith saw [prominent Conservative] come in - with a rather sparkly, and disturbingly young male friend - and they couldn't let him recognize them, so they had to hide their faces when even he came near their table, and there are only so many non-suspicious ways to hide your faces in a club, or at least only so many that Rachel and Keith can think of when lonely, slightly drunk and sitting too close together. But it was a *gay* club, so het sucking-face would be suspicious too. Of all the things Rachel never thought she'd end up doing, giving Keith a crash course in heavy petting the lesbian way was not one of them.)


• 4. The mpreg fic (Because anything Stephen can do, Keith can do better! ...actually he did offer, but Rachel laughed at him. And even in Massachussets the legal issues are a lot simpler if Rachel carries her own kid. Her and Susan's kid. Even if she and Susan did decide they should make it the old-fashioned way. With Keith. Yes, Keith is the luckiest guy in the world, funny you should ask!)


• 5. The time when Keith lost a bet with Stephen, and the PRT went out with Kay and Raven instead of Keith and Stephen. (Anderson took them to a bar he knew where nobody asks questions and everybody treats you as the gender you're presenting as. Raven was utterly convincing and Rachel's pretty sure at some point Stephen needs to confront his tendency to step into character at a moment's notice. Keith looked like Keith in girl's jeans and lipgloss and way out of his element, but somehow that was even more disconcerting, because everybody was treating him as a woman and addressing him as a woman, and Rachel (especially after a half-dozen cocktails or so) started responding to him as a woman, and by "responding" we mean *responding*, and after a couple more drinks going back to the ladies' room just seemed like a good idea, okay?)


• 6. never touch the skull. (You know. The one that swaps bodies freaky-friday style. The one that Jon borrowed from the AMNH for some reason. That was a really confusing couple of days until everyone got sorted out.)


• 7. never touch the sex pollen. Just don't. (And no, don't ask how Anderson got his hands on it, either. Or why he brought it back to New York with him.)


• 8. never touch the vaxadrine (You know, the pill bottle in Stephen's drawer. At least not without reading the most recently published list of side effects first. "Spontaneous genderswap" actually is on there, if you look with a jeweller's loupe.)


• 9. No, seriously, *never* touch the vaxadrine (and yes, I'm pretty sure that second time was on purpose, Rachel, at least a little bit. If you're a lesbian and having homosexual relations it counts as lesbian even if you both have boyparts at the time. At least according to Rachel.)


• 10. the time she went to the world with girl!Keith (and that Keith's Rachel was straight, which was evidence of the fundamental cruelty of the universe. Hey, if the universe is unfair, it's our job to try to make it better, right? She's pretty sure straight!Rachel is doing the same thing with her Keith, anyway.)


• 11. The time girl!Keith came to our universe here (and that girl!Keith was straight. Luckily, Rachel can turn straight girls gay. Also, Stephen really needs to get that portal above his fireplace fixed.)


• 12. The time when future!Rachel dropped by, and everyone was even more confused, but Anderson had a tape recorder.


• 13. Stephen Colbert Presents: Alpha Squad 7: The Sinister Sapphic Sisterhood of Space : A Tek Jansen Adventure, in which our hearty hero receives a cry for consolation from his competitor Countdown Keith, who has been captured by the Sinister Sapphic Sisterhood of Space. The mighty and majestic Mad Dog Maddow, matriarch of the militant maids, is keeping Countdown Keith captive as a concubine!
  How will our heroic hero liberate him from these lusty left-leaning lesbians?

Here Be Art

I originally posted this drawing to the deleted f_w post, to demonstrate to people that the best solution to Rachel being lesbian is to turn Keith into a girl, so you might have already seen it there or where I posted it to my JF account. You probably didn't though. So here it is.

I think this was meant to be an illustration for #9 - Rachel and Keith have learned what Stephen's magic pills do, and that the effects aren't permanent, and now they're just playing silly buggers so they can be together without either of them having to actually examine their day-to-day identity. (What happens while genderswapped stays while genderswapped.) So this is male!Keith in a female body; he's going for butch because the first time it happened, when they weren't sure he'd be able to switch back, Rachel was careful to point out that not everything had to change, and it's easier, and this way he doesn't have to think about playing female, just being female; and also he rather quickly realized that Rachel doesn't want him to be a girl, she just wants her Keith but in a body she has chemistry with.

This Keith has long hair because I decided that the magic pills grow out all your body hair to its natural, untrimmed length. So the boy!Rachel he's about to go clubbing with has long hair too. (She shaves the beard, but Keith told her to keep the three-foot ponytail. C'mon, you all went for Rachel in a miniskirt and go-go boots; you know you'd go for long-haired bishie swishy boy!Rachel. Anyway I would. :P)

It was done with my patented "i have no tablet" method, as it was during the period when my stylus was lost in the depths of my chair. Basically, penciled and inked with a fine-point marker by hand, scan the inks, do a lot of messing with brightness/contrast in Gimp to clean up the pencils, use select - grow - fill to fill in flat areas of color, then do the shading by using the touchpad to put in very rough darks and lights, and touchpad+smudge tool to smooth off the shading areas. I call it "computer fingerpainting". It comes out pretty good, given the tools.

The fanmix: 'I'll Be That Girl: Music To Bend Gender To'


I'll Be That Girl
The main thing I learned from making this mix is that Liz Phair is singing about her lover's "Hot White Cum", not "Hard White Cunt". Admittedly, that does make the facials bit make more sense. SO that song didn't end up on the list. I tried to do a good mix of keith/rachel songs with classic genderqueer songs, but there are surprisingly few songs that are specifically about men who turn into chicks so they can date lesbians and lesbians who go straight for their men (or possibly surprisingly many, I suppose,) so you have to switch pronouns (or voices) on some of these to make them fit. (Some of them come with voices and pronouns pre-switched.) Also there should probably be more queercore on here - queercore is a good genre for writing Rachel sex regardless - but I ran up against the fact that actually, I can't stand most hardcore punk. Sorry.

This tells the story (more or less) of the 13 times, but as if they had all happened in the same universe: they start out not sure what's going on, they acknowledge that they'd be together if only the parts fit, they decide that there's more to love than being the proper gender, they have lots of genderqueer sex where they play with roles, they get tired of playing games with labels, they have lots of sex as just them whovere they happen to be at the moment, they live happily ever after (a few degrees off from the rest of the world) until Rachel realizes she should have been using birth control. (Somebody should write that story, anyway.)

1. The Spotlight Cabaret - I Love You, Rachel Maddow.mp3
I know that you're gay / but I'm gay too / and at least that's a start!

2. Jonathan Coulton - Drinking with You.mp3
No big deal, we can play it nice and cool and keep the pressure off / Invite our friends

3. Bill Pritchard - I'm Your Man.mp3
If you want a lover / Ill do anything you ask me to / And if you want another kind of love / I'll wear a mask for you

4. Zanna Don't - Don't You Wish We Could Be in Love.mp3
I've got you, and that's enough / Do I really need to be in love?

5. Dar Williams - When I Was A Boy(1).mp3
And so I tell the man I'm with about the other life I lived / And I say, "Now you're top gun, I have lost and you have won" / And he says, "Oh no, no, can't you see

6. Melissa Etheridge - Come To My Window.mp3
You don't know how much I'd give / Or how much I can take

7. Cobra Starship - I Kissed a Boy.mp3
I know it's wrong, but I don't mind / I'm gonna start shit tonight

8. loudon wainwright iii - i wish i was a lesbian.mp3
I wish I was a lesbian, and that I wasn't straight! / I wish I were a lesbian, I'd like to be a dyke.

9. barenaked ladies - i'll be that girl.mp3
If you will not have me as myself / perhaps as someone else / Perhaps as you I'll be worth noticing

10. Plummet - 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover (MacQ Radio Mix).mp3
And then she kissed me / and I realized she probably was right

11. k d lang - Sexuality.mp3
How bad could it be? / If you should lose yourself with me?

12. bjork - venus as a boy.mp3
He sets off / The beauty in her / He's venus as a boy

13. Garbage - Androgyny.mp3
Get on board and have some fun / Take what you need to turn you on

14. Double Zero - Pacer.mp3
Today we're two little girls / tomorrow two little boys

15. Pansy Division - Flower.mp3
Every time I see your face / I get all wet between my legs

16. Madonna - What It Feels Like for a Girl (Album Version-GHV2).mp3
Hair that twirls on finger tips so gently, baby / Hands that rest on jutting hips repenting

17. Killers - somebody told me.mp3
Seventeen tracks and I've had it with this game

18. Aerosmith - Dude Looks Like A Lady.mp3
So never judge a book by it's cover / Or who you're going to love by your lover

19. The Exit Plan - Channel Zero.mp3
There must be some way for us to break through / to cover up all these lies that hide the truth

20. John Barrowman - I Am What I Am.mp3
Life's not worth a damn until you can say / Hey, world, I am what I am!

21. Ranma Opening.mp3
It's annoying, but / ...just for tonight, it's okay

22. Two Nice Girls - I spent my last ten dollars on birth control and beer.mp3
My life was so much simpler when I was sober and queer / But the love of a strong hairy man has turned my head I fear

23 (bonus track) Heather Alexander - Stolen Child.mp3
For he comes, the human child / To the waters and the wild / With a faery hand in hand / For the world's more full of weeping / Than you can understand.

Comments

[sarken]

OH MY GOD OH MY GOD, IT IS FIVE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND YET I HAVE TO FLAIL AT YOU BECAUSE THIS IS SO FREAKING AMAZING. (Yes. Yes, I was drinking bourbon. So, um. Bear with me?)

Firstly: I would jump girl!Keith's bones so fast. (As in "without thinking." Because I assure you, there would be nothing fast about what would ensue.) Your drawing of him looks exactly like my mental image, except for maybe the work boots.

Secondly: LOUDON WAINWRIGHT, AS IN CAPTAIN SPALDING FROM M*A*S*H, IS THE VOICE BEHIND "I WISH I WAS A LESBIAN?" This just made M*A*S*H about six times morebetter.

Thirdly: "Androgyny" is a perfect perfect perfect choice, one that I see lining up with that second Vaxadrine scenario, especially with that line you quoted, take what you need to turn you on. And, relatedly, the Vaxadrine explanation is just freaking flipping ten types of brilliant and perfect, because it's, like, the easy explanation. My problem with K/R genderswap was I never had a way to explain it in the text, and the fact that I can't throw one line out there just always kept me from making it work. So kudos to you for coming up with something totally plausible and easily explainable!

Fourthly: 10. the time she went to the world with girl!Keith (and that Keith's Rachel was straight, which was evidence of the fundamental cruelty of the universe....) Yes, this! I am wholly convinced that there is not a single universe where their genders and sexual orientations are properly aligned. Because it's no fun when things are easy and, really, I think if things were easy for them, if things lined up right, they would cease to be them. (It's why random, convenient straight!Rachel in Keith/Rachel makes my skin crawl a little -- it's not so much about stripping her of her lesbian identity as it is about stripping away the weird tension/dynamic that makes them Keith and Rachel instead of just any other het couple out there.)

Fifthly: Even if she and Susan did decide they should make it the old-fashioned way. With Keith. Yes, Keith is the luckiest guy in the world, funny you should ask! I am something like eight pages into the story where Rachel is all, "Susan and I want a kid, Keith, and we require your assistance. There will be no turkey baster." It is...awkward.

Sixthly: Keith looked like Keith in girl's jeans and lipgloss and way out of his element, but somehow that was even more disconcerting, because everybody was treating him as a woman and addressing him as a woman I need this in ways I have never needed anything before. I don't know. I'm sure he looks kind of ridiculous, but, really, I just want someone to make me see him -- her, I should say, to make me see her the way Rachel does, because I am sure she is beyond beautiful like that.

Seventhly: And Susan's birthday is coming up. So she brings him home for a weekend. It was a very fun weekend. I have a twitch about real life spouses in my porn, but whatever, because omgyesthis. And I also know the person who could write something like this without being twitchy like either yourself or myself. (There are people who have not been infused with strange squicks picked up only by spending too much time in fandom at large. It's weird. And I'm not sure that sentence made sense, but it's 5:30 and I HAVE BOURBON. Hi.)

AND FINALLY, AT 5:30 A.M.: he's going for butch because the first time it happened, when they weren't sure he'd be able to switch back, Rachel was careful to point out that not everything had to change, and it's easier, and this way he doesn't have to think about playing female, just being female YES, THIS. This is how I like my genderswap: as a sex change rather than a gender change. That is, when my boys become girls, I do not want them to run off to the manicurist or whatever. Except I can see Keith or any of the pundit boys doing that at first, trying out being stereotypically girly either because they think they have to or are just curious as to what it's like. But, I don't know, this all just makes me so glad we have Rachel because she's all, "Yes, I look like a man! Because I want to!"

...I'm going to disappear now before I spill my Rachel adoration all over your comments.

[melannen]

I posted this at like three in the morning; am I going to say anything to you about bedtimes? NO.

1. I'm not sure what Keith thinks about the books either, except the support makes it easier to remember how to walk, and none of his old shoes fit (I imagine that's his jacket and jeans, the shirt was Rachel's even if it is going to get all stretched out of shape) and he wasn't going to wear Rachel's gumdrop-colored whatsits, so her workboots it was.

2. I am not a general fan of Loudon Wainwright, but I did double-check all the metadata, so - yes? :D

3. Please use the Vaxadrine idea! All the time! Yes! Really, if you posit that even a fraction of the things Jon and Stephen talk about on air are true, all sorts of crack becomes possible. I mean, Stephen has half the contents of the Marvel Universe on his trophy shelf, for one thing, and a door to Sesame Street on set...

4. Yeah, I find it ... hard to believe in a Keith and Rachel where they are just plain het. Because things would be *so* different, and the tension is more complicated than just sex. Though it might be interesting to figure out a way to write straight!Rachel and Keith that keeps the tension somehow. (I believe I did decide that in girl!Keith's universe, Jon and Stephen are both single and both know they're bi, only Jon is Orthodox and Stephen's a priest. And Anderson and Erica Hill are happily married and have five kids, because Anderson doesn't need the extra stress.

5. I WANT THIS STORY.

6. I WANT THIS STORY TOO. I think - well, Raven is perfect, as usual, and a bit scary: if it weren't that she can't resist camping it up occasionally, she would pass even in the straight world (I suspect Jon is having his own little meltdown across the table from Rachel.) Keith suspects the bet was actually more about giving Stephen an excuse to pull Raven out of storage anyway, so he's not going all-out, but they take him shopping and buy him jeans and candy-colored sneakers and a padded tank top with glittery blue stars on it and Stephen messes with his hair, and a tiny bit of make-up and a body-language lesson from Raven (Rachel was supposed to teach him, but after a few minutes of trying, Raven pointed out that Rachel doesn't exactly know from presenting as femme, and locked her out of the room) and anyway, Keith still looks like Keith in girl's clothes, but it's Keith, so whatever he does he does /right/, and it's just enough that -- she's not male anymore either.

7. Oddly, my problem with that story isn't so much writing Susan - the way I'd write it is fun-hearted and fade-to-black enough that I'm not too squicked - it's me wondering why I have trouble erasing Susan (who's not a public figure) but always blithely ignore Katy (who is.)

8. I think that if Keith knew it was temporary, he *might*, in a spirit of "see how the other side lives," go femme (but do it in a ham-handedly male-privileged way). But in the story I came up with, he didn't know what had happened, and had a very deep freakout. (Jon and Stephen would both cope by playing it up and going totally camp, I think. Anderson, I think, would freak almost as much as Keith, but more quietly; he's just so private, and it would feel like erasing all the dignity he's built around who he is. If he did go out in public, though, she would be utterly stylish and poised and completely unrecognizable as Anderson. ...Rachel I think would also freak-but-quietly, and she'd keep presenting exactly the same mix of butch and femme she already does, which means boy!Rachel would read as feminine but not in any particularly pointed way.)

Spill Rachel adoration anywhere you like! :D

[bessemerprocess]

RE: 4.

And you know, Jon is frum. Which means it's technically okay for him to touch Stephen, except that's totally breaking the spirit of the rule, because he wants Stephen. and their on the interfaith council together, and have been shaking hands since before Jon had this little revelation, so he can't just stop touching Stephen.

[melannen]

And, y'know, I think Jon eventually gets to the point where he realizes he has to stop touching, it's not fair otherwise, and then Stephen asks why because he's afraid *he* gave it away, and they actually talk on a personal level beyond the way they immediately clicked in discussion, and they end up in this epic, totally chaste but still sexual platonic love affair where they sit up talking long into the night but support each other's oaths and obligations when one of them is tempted.

(And they're both getting active in efforts to change their respective faiths' attitudes toward homosexuality, which makes the whole thing oddly political, as well - both the in fact that they've acknowledged this thing between them, and that they can never, never act on it.)

[sarken]

Rachel was supposed to teach him, but after a few minutes of trying, Raven pointed out that Rachel doesn't exactly know from presenting as femme, and locked her out of the room

This makes me want it even more. We must kidnap someone and make her write it for us.

it's me wondering why I have trouble erasing Susan (who's not a public figure) but always blithely ignore Katy (who is.)

I read your comment when I got out of bed and proceeded to think about this -- which is a fandom-wide phenomenon, as far as I've seen -- as I ate breakfast. I didn't really like the theory I came up with. Essentially, it came down to this: I think Katy is the kind of woman society tells us it is easy/acceptable to dismiss, while Susan is not. Of course, there are other possibilities, too, like Rachel talks about Susan more freely than Keith talks about Katy (at least on the air), and that Susan had a huge role in making Rachel the person she is today, while the same cannot be said of Katy and Keith.

(Vaguely related: despite my feelings on the Katy issue, I kind of feel compelled to write Rachel/Katy just to make Keith's life miserable. My objections and squicks only go so far, I suppose.)

Rachel I think would also freak-but-quietly, and she'd keep presenting exactly the same mix of butch and femme she already does, which means boy!Rachel would read as feminine but not in any particularly pointed way.

This is exactly how I see boy!Rachel, too. I already wrote the smut with her, but now I kind of want to write the not-smut, the one where she goes to work and Keith peers at her over the top of his glasses and says, "You look different today. Is that a new hat?" before going back to his work. (I keep saying "her." Huh. I guess think boy!Rachel identifies as trans. And, if she does, I think everyone is confused and can't figure out what pronouns to use even after she tells them to keep using female ones.)

[melannen]

Yes! Who shall we kidnap?

I think yours may be part of it, but Keith has been with Katy for - gah, three years now, almost a third as long as Rachel's been with Susan - so it's not like she's had no part in his life.

I think you're right that we just don't like Katy as much; she's easy to dismiss because she seems, on the surface, to be a dismissable person, the sort of boring mainstream girl that fandom-girls generally have little patience for. And that makes me not want to delve very deeply into what she has with Keith, because it makes me think bad thoughts about what Keith is really like in his personal life. :/ Of course, it seems like I ought to be going the other way, and saying "Katy must have something to her that's worth talking about if Keith thinks she does." And it's not like there's nothing interesting about her; we can start with her parents and go from there. I just -- I'm not interested in finding out what it is. D:

Alas, patriarchy, your programming screws us up. Rachel/Katy would be AWESOME AWESOME though, you should totally write it, yes please.

Oooh, I love the genderfuck story where someone switches sex but not gender, and IDs as trans, and it hardly ever gets written, and the Rachel story like that would be *so* amazing. Especially Keith not noticing. That story feels like it would stay a Rachel/Susan story for me, too, though it could go other places (boy!girl!Rachel/Anderson! boy!girl!Rachel/Raven!) (I kind of want there to be a thread where Keith *keeps* not saying anything, and not saying anything, and Rachel can't believe he hasn't noticed, and finally he's like, "Of course I noticed, but you didn't say anything, so I didn't either.")

All the genderfuck smut in the kink meme was awesome, but man do I want the stories that go beyond the sex scenes...

[sarken]

Keith has been with Katy for - gah,
 three years now, almost a third as long as Rachel's been with Susan - so
 it's not like she's had no part in his life.

Oh, no, I'm not saying Katy's not a big part of Keith's life, or that she hasn't even changed him in some ways, but rather that Rachel cites meeting Susan as such a profound, existential thing that I do not think you get anything even approximating the Rachel we have without the presence of a Susan. Granted, we only have her word (as filtered through reporters) on that and can't really observe the change, while we can look at Keith from five years ago and compare him to the Keith we see now, and and there's no difference as profound as what Rachel would have us see for her. Of course, we have to filter through Keith's on air persona to look for that change, so.... I guess what I'm saying is that, while it is entirely possible Katy's effect on Keith is equal to or even greater than Susan's effect on Rachel, he doesn't make it as obvious in as many ways as Rachel does. And the nature of RPF is such that all we really have to go on is this sort of insight/self analysis. (Which I guess means we are really screwed with Keith, whose persona so often acts like he is incapable of such things, much like character!Stephen.)

And that makes me not want to delve very deeply into what she has with Keith, because it makes me think bad thoughts about what Keith is really like in his personal life.

So. much. this. And the media (oh, great, I sound like Sarah Palin) just loves feeding into that icky Keith impression, which doesn't help us not think in that direction when Katy comes up. Of course, anything we hear about Katy tends to be filtered through the media, which... It gives me a headache to think about, really. (Oh, look, another reason not to write Katy! Thinking about it too hard gives you a headache!)

I will admit, though, that there are times it can be fun to play with the idea of creep!Keith. (Looking at you, 80s AU.) I just don't want that to be the default Keith. 

(I kind of want there to be a thread where Keith *keeps* not saying anything, and not saying anything, and Rachel can't believe he hasn't noticed, and finally he's like, "Of course I noticed, but you didn't say anything, so I didn't either.")

*wibble* THIS. Because despite all the creep talk above, he can be incredibly sweet like that.  

[melannen]

Yeah, the media likes to play up the creep angle with Katy & Keith; but the way it's portrayed, it's pretty obvious that it's half hatred for Keith, and half some pretty blatant misogyny around Katy refusing to be the woman they want her to be. And you know, I'm almost exactly Katy's age, and *I'd* totally shack up with him if I got a chance. ...and that aside, in fic, I actually really like some variations on the older man/younger woman pairings (somewhere in my "to write" file I have a whole meta on that) - but part of what makes it work is that you have to believe the younger woman is awesome enough to be his equal, or at least have a balanced partnership with him. If I could make myself write Katy, I would kind of love to write a Keith story like that, in the id-fic tradition that I go to Snape/Hermione and Kakashi/Sakura and Logan/Rogue for in fpf. And really, in some versions of Keith/Rachel, it gets there anyway, with Keith as mentor/partner/lover to a Rachel he taught the ropes to. Of course, you could totally go the creep angle with Rachel and Susan too if you were so inclined: she picks up the fifteen-years-younger desperately poor desperately lost landscaper, moulds her in her image so she'll never know how to leave, and then coasts on the young lover's money and fame once she's successful.

I just ... I would never write that Susan, but I'm kind of afraid I might end up writing that Keith. Or, worse, believing in him. :/

Keith tries really hard to be a good guy, and you can tell he's trying, he just succeeds better in some ways than others. (I'm sure that whatever his relationship with Katy actually is based on, he sincerely believes that he's good for her, and maybe he is. What's the campsite rule for younger lovers? Leave 'em better than you found 'em? I'd buy that of Keith, I think.)

(Man... now I kind of want one of those pederasty AUs for PRT, you know, where older people are expected to form relationships with younger people in which they exchange teaching for sex. It would be creepyawesome!

(Also: 80s AU YES.)

www.livejournal.com/users/hobbit_feet

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry to butt in, I was just really interested in what you said about the Keith-Katy dynamic mostly because its very much how I feel. I also like some fics about May/December relationships.

But really, its the horrible misogynistic way that she's treated by "the media" that has me want to write awesome!Katy fic just in protest. Not that she couldn't be awesome in real life, but wish there was a little more f!Katy out there. Partly because I think that it would be interesting to see how she interacted with other PRT members and their partners and also because I think that it would be interesting to explore some of the PRT's preconceptions about Keith and Katy's relationship. And as far as interactions with the PRT and their partners go, I think some Katy-Susan interactions could be interesting since their partners are best friends.

And I'm done rambling, just dumping my own thoughts out there since yours made me thinky. : )

[lady_ganesh]

I love you. You win at life. That is all.

[melannen]

Hurrah! Keith and Rachel = win.

[lady_ganesh]

Pretty much!

[caitlin]

Okay, so this is the part where I admit... I'd do either or both of them... regardless of their gender. And, hell, I'd watch them do each other... and Susan... again, regardless of their gender.

Although some of the situations in that list of 13 are ROFLMAO inducing. =D

[melannen]

They were kind of intended to be. (Just be glad I didn't leave in the one with the Muppets.)

[caitlin]

Wouldn't that depend on WHICH Muppets? ;)

[melannen]

No, no, the more important question I think is "Which of them *turned into* Muppets?" ;P

[caitlin]

Actually? That sounds like it would be intriguing and interesting! =D

[willwrite_fortea]

oooooo hot damn I love this post in more ways than I can express, without my comment turning as long as [Unknown site tag]

but HOT DAMN I love genderbend K/R, don't even need too much sexin' up just the ways they debate their own minds: "ok he looks like a woman, now I'm attracted to him, but maybe I loved him before.. etc etc"

downloading the mix as I type, as my library needs more music STAT. and queercore is the way to go to make my parents & other people in the house go: WTF are you listening to? O_o

[melannen]

YES, like, the sexy part isn't even the sex, it's the way they make the sex work for them, the interaction between body as sex organ and mind as sex organ (and heart, which is steady as a beacon, it's the finding your way there that's bent.)

The problem with queercore is that unles you listen really carefully, they're just screaming stuff and making sex noises, which is the same as any other hardcore, so bystanders can't even tell it's queer. Pansy Division is more country, though, Pansy Division is awesome.

[bessemerprocess]

This is one of the best things to wake up to EVER.

I love how quite a bit of this can be blamed on Stephen (you know he had a master plan, these really weren't just freak accidents :)

I still absolutely love, love, love that drawing of girl!keith, not just because he's a girl and a hot one at that, but because he manages to look comfortable in that body while still being a little nervous about the whole thing.

I wish I didn't have Susan related spouse squick, because 1 is awesome and I wish to read it.

The universe is indeed a very cruel place.

I have finally gotten over my Ana related real person whom I've talked to squick thankfully, and am enjoying the tiny flood of Rachel/Ana that's been going on (and the Rachel/Ana/Keith).

[melannen]

I was debating making all of them Stephen's fault somehow, but then I decided to just go with the flow. (They probably can be, though. It's Stephen's fault Rachel was on Jon's show in the first place. It's Stephen's fault Rachel got that drunk at the party. It's Stephen's fault Rachel wants a kid. It's Stephen's fault Jon borrowed the skull and Anderson showed off the sex pollen. And the whole thing with the interuniverse portals and the time travel: all Stephen! And if Tek Jansen is anyone's fault... Rachel is *never* drinking on his set again. Ever.)

Keith is deeply conflicted on the whole being-a-girl thing, especially the voluntarily-being-a-girl, but as long as it gets him Rachel sex, he's not going to worry about thinking it all the way through!

The universe is cruel indeed. Why are they real people instead of just dolls I can play with without guilt?? (Oooh: a cyberpunk AU where all newscasters are androids! The tension is programmed for ratings! What happens when they start to resist their programming?)

[elspethdixon]

*grins* This mix is awesome -- we could have used it the past few months while we were writing our genderswap big bang fic.

[melannen]

It is awesome, isn't it. I kept wobbling between leaving it as/is, or taking the Rachel specific songs out and saying it was a panfandom gendefuck mix.

[erinptah]

I'm really glad you linked to that discussion, because I missed it completely but I am very glad to see it. Even felt pretty good about most of what was said (...except for the whole "we're addressing the issue by not addressing it!" sub-subthread, which made me cringe a little). And given how much Rachel het squicks me in general, that's saying a lot.

The whole "fandom reacts to Rachel like another guy" observation was creepily accurate, and makes me want to write reams of extra-girly femslash. Maybe I should dust off that Kristen/Sam plotbunny.

Also, all the crazy magic/SCIENCE!-induced genderplay in those fic summaries is delicious, and should totally be explored in more detail :D

[melannen]

Oh, I'm glad you got something out of that discussion! Yeah, the way it showed up was kind of odd: that first post was metafandomed but not really about Keith/Rachel, but then it grew into this thing that ended up on f_w (i think by way of f_s ?) but didn't really ever get linked to wider fandom again.

It was a good conversation, though!

I think I would love fic that plays up how Rachel isn't really one of the guys, that talks about her girly side: one of the things that's awesome about her is that she can be an ol' boy when she wants to, but one of the other awesome things is that she only is when she wants to.

I support your positions re: crazy magic and SCIENCE! You are welcome to use any of them with different pairings if you should so desire. :D

[erinptah]

Ooh, the f_s involvement explains it. I was wondering what part of that conversation merited roundup on f_w; "if you write this pairing, I Judge You" would do the trick.

I just may snag some of the plot ideas, because they are highly shiny. Where did that body-swapping skull originate from...?

www.livejournal.com/users/hobbit_feet

[(Anonymous)]

Basically, I just love everything about this post. I have such a deep abiding love of girl!Keith there are no words.