Things That Are Currently Annoying Me About Fic With Ace Characters

[melannen]

So I got brainweasels about that last post immediately after posting it, yay. All your comments are lovely! But that + RL stress = I may be letting them sit without replies for a bit while I fight off small angry mustelids. :/ Sorry.

But we shall push on regardless! Cranky post is definitely a good thing to push on with in this state of mind, right.

So, I have been sort of following the saga of "fandom discovers asexuality is a thing, yay; fandom writes ace fic, almost none of which I actually like, boo" for years and years and years, basically since fandom discovered asexuality.

Every so often I go "asexuality is so much more visible and well understood now! I will go check the AO3 tag and read the good fic that people are definitely writing" and. Nope. I still end up backbuttoning out of my first three tries. Or just looking at the summary and going 'nope'. And then I go back to only reading ace fic by a very small list of writers who I trust to do it reasonably well.

The interesting thing is that the source of Nope keeps changing. Back in the day, it was usually "What you want there is not an ace character, what you want is non-reciprocity kink. Which I also enjoy! But not when you slather 'pat my back for writing ace fic' all over your non-reciprocity kink."

We've gone through several other trends in nope since then, though. The current one actually took me awhile to figure out why it was giving me the nopes, even though it was pretty simple once I thought about it.

Here's the thing: I keep reading stories with variations on this conversation:

Bailey: Hey, wanna have sex?
Ash: Nope, sorry, you're great but I'm ace.
Bailey: Aww, well, if you're ace, we can just be cuddlebuddies.

Or like this:

Bailey: Hey, wanna go out?
Ash: Not a no, but you should know that if we do, I won't be having sex with you.
Bailey: That's OK, I already knew you were ace, we can work around that.

Or like this:

Bailey: Hey, wanna have sex?
Ash: I acknowledge you are objectively attractive, but I'm demi, so your crappy personality means that will never happen. Bye.
Bailey: I guess it's time to improve the personality.

Now, those may be perfectly realistic conversations to have happen (I too have used the "No sorry I'm ace, stop asking" line a few times) because that kind of thing is super-awkward and people don't always say the right thing even if they're trying (sometimes especially) but the thing is, these conversations are never written as "super-awkward, bad situation", they are written as "isn't this person so sensitive and understanding and trustworthy, won't they make a great SO for an ace person" and they are part of stories that are attempting to be pure sugar syrup. And. So much no.

For the record, if I turn you down by mentioning my asexuality, that does not mean "I trust you so much with my deepest darkest secret, I know you can help me figure out how to be happy anyway," it means "this is a really uncomfortable situation and I 100% don't trust you to take a plain no for an answer, so I'm going to make it weird and hope you drop the subject."

For the record, this is how this conversation should go with someone sensitive and trustworthy and cinnamon roll:

Ash: I don't want to have sex with you.
Bailey: OK! Then we won't have sex. Do you want to do something else with me? I made cake.

You see how Bailey just respects Ash's "No sex" without needing an excuse for why? Do you see how at no point does anyone imply that the only reason to turn down sex is sexual orientation? Nor does anyone imply that all non-ace romantic relationships must include sex immediately? Nor that no allosexual ever gets turned off by a crappy personality, only demi people care about that? Do you see how sexual orientation never actually comes up, because "I don't want to have sex with you" is a statement that can be said by people of many sexual orientations for many reasons, and none of them are obligated to explain why? Imagine!

I recently finished reading a book series where the main character is more-or-less ace. I say more-or-less because she lives in a society where sexual orientation isn't a culturally important thing, it's just whether a particular person is attracted to another particular person, and everyone (at least, everyone who is supposed to be a good person) takes no for an answer and drops it.

And after awhile, everyone just accepts that this character's answer will always be no, and that's ok. And eventually she does get to the point in some relationships where she explains in more detail what her personal relationship with sexuality is, and that's also ok! But it happens quite a long time after it has already been established that she will not be having sex with them, and that they did not need or expect an explanation for why.

That, for the record, is how you should do that when you are trying to write fluffy cinnamon rolls.

Especially since, you know, if you are 100% understanding and trustworthy, it's possible an ace person might be willing to try sex with you! And it will go really well and you will both enjoy yourselves! There are no guarantees, but then, when are there ever guarantees. And it is far less likely if we have already established that you expect sex from anyone who does not have immutable, blunt sexual orientation as an excuse.

Sometimes I actually read a story where the author does that part right, and I don't backbutton for long enough that I get to where non-repulsed-ace-character and Cinnamon Roll do decide to try sex.

At that point, there's at least a 50% chance that I will read a setup for a sex scene that goes, "Because I'm ace, I haven't tried--" or "Even though I'm ace, I like--" or "So I know you're ace, but can we--?"

And, again, I get what the author is trying to do there, and I applaud them for it, but imagine reading a sex scene that was all, "Even though I'm bi, I don't always have threesomes" or "I'm gay, so of course I like blowjobs," or "So I know you're lesbian, but can we see if you like penetration anyway?" or "Hey so I know I said I'm straight but can we try something other than the missionary position?" Over and over again. And in perfect fluffulous sincerity, no arch eyebrow raises about ridiculous assumptions or character having a poorly timed sexual crisis.

That would grate on the nerves, right? I feel like that would grate. It also grates when the character is ace. Presumably if they got this far and they're this good at communicating, Cinnamon Roll already knows that some ace people enjoy some sex acts. It's fine.

Writing sex scenes where characters communicate well about what they like and what they have done before and where they are happy to try new things is wonderful. You don't need to precede every statement of preference with a reaffirmation of sexual orientation. Really. It's fine. Stop. If you feel so awkward about writing an ace-spectrum character having sex that you have to repeat it over and over, you could try writing a story where your ace character doesn't fall in love or have sex. I promise I am not sick of reading those yet. It's not like fandom has figured out how to do those yet either.

Comments

[muccamukk]

Thanks for writing this. It's very helpful and practical.

[melannen]

You're welcome! I am glad you find my ranting useful.

[beccaelizabeth]

*cheerleader*
yes.

[melannen]

I just wish there were more stories where "not happening, I'm ace" meant approximately the same thing as "fuck off, I'm lesbian" instead of meaning "let's start a beautiful life journey together", you know?

[verity]

Yessssssss x 10000000

[melannen]

SOMEDAY I will be able to randomly click on that tag and find a readable fic, instead of having to skim down it until I find a verity story.

[synecdochic]

I have nothing to add to this most excellent rant except a) brainweasels are stupid and b) that book series sound awesome, what is it? :D

[melannen]

Imperial Radch by Anne Leckie, which you have probably heard people mention before. :D

(I just read the last one, the way Breq's primary life relationships turn out is, like, everything I have ever wanted.)

[rymenhild]

I wonder if some of this isn't fans imposing models of behavior with respect to sexual orientation that they learned from gay/lesbian "coming out" stories on ace characters. (Those stories were always oversimplified when applied to gays and lesbians, too - and worse when reapplied to bi or trans characters.) The models as applied to ace characters are nonsense, anyway, and I thank you for the glorious rant about this.

Is the series you're talking about Imperial Radch?

[melannen]

Yes, it is that series. ^_^

And, yeah, I don't actually think this rant is mostly about asexuality per se, it's about our culture around consent and sexuality being super fucked up. And I think a lot of what I've seen as it changes is most writers of ace fic shifting from being "non-ace people who have found a neat new thing to use in stories" to "very young ace people who don't know what not-fucked-up would even look like".

And there's enough slashfic out there now, and enough slashfic that just takes the queer stuff for granted, that I can find what I like pretty easily. Not so much with ace fic. Yet.

[erinptah]

Yeahhhhhh. I feel like a lot of Young Tumblr/Fandom Asexuality Discourse is coming from people who find that "you are disrespecting my orientation by pressuring me to have sex" is more effective than "you are disrespecting me by pressuring me to have sex." (Whether it's pressure from a specific person, or from general societal trends.) If you can claim some kind of identity-based oppression, you get access to this whole set of vocabulary and arguments and community support in your own self-defense.

I'm not saying none of these people genuinely are ace, but you hit the nail on the head with, the thing they have in common isn't asexuality -- it's "not knowing what a non-fucked-up attitude towards consent looks like." Or sometimes "not feeling that a non-fucked-up attitude towards consent is something they're entitled to, and/or have the ability to safely enforce, in their own relationships."

(And, dammit, I liked the world "demisexual", before so many people started using it to mean "I don't want to have sex with everyone in my preferred subset of genders at all times, therefore I'm part of a minority sexual orientation.")

[melannen]

Yeah. And, I mean, I don't mind if people do that? Whatever you need to defend yourself, you do you. (I also think there are plenty of people who read like that's what they're doing who are, in fact, ace by any definition, they're just teenagers and flailing. As teenagers do.)

But when that sort of thing becomes so much the dominant conversation that everything else is drowned out... then I get cranky. Because a, there's no space for other ways of doing asexuality, and b, it's not really helping people find healthy if they're all just reinforcing each other in their fucked-up-ness. And "fucked-up teenagers" are always going to be able to outshout any other demographic on Tumblr, I'm, afraid.

[recessional]

I am really cranky about that shift because the original meaning is actually me. Like, no no no: it's not that I "don't want to have sex" with someone unless I'm already emotionally attached to them.

I mean I do not experience attraction. I may STILL not want to have sex with them for like a billion reasons! Just, you know, the actual attraction has turned on, period. It was not on before.

*grumbles*

[neotoma]

I think I'm going to disappoint you if I ever get the fic with the character I'm writing as a demisexual finished. Partly because he's older and not plugged into the sort of social media where he'd even encounter the term, so he only knows is that sex doesn't work for him like it seems to work for everyone else.

But I am definitely trying to write the 'super-awkward conversation and situation' which is him and his prospective partner trying to navigate an intimate relationship.

I think we're at the point where writers who are ace are writing stories from their own perspective and are having to hack out the tropes, characterization shortcuts, and themes on their own, and the learning curve is kind of steep.

[melannen]

That doesn't sound like anything I would have a problem with! At least not *these* problems. I all for super-awkward conversations between prospective partners. My problem is when the super-awkward conversation becomes "I am this sexual orientation, therefore this" instead of "I am this individual person, therefore this." And when the author does not realize that said conversation is weird and awkward, they think it means everything is perfect.

I would rather read a thousand fics about someone who doesn't have the terminology to use and struggles awkwardly to understanding than one fic where someone says, "It's fine, you're demi, so I know all I need to know about you."

(I do tend to avoid fics that have "demisexual character" plastered all over them even harder than ones that have "asexual character" plastered all over them, because 90% of the time, it's just a fic with a character who says "I don't have sex with anyone I don't already have an emotional connection with". And, yeah. That is missing the point in several directions, and generally whether the character is actually demisexual or not is irrelevant to the story as written..)

[birke]

This is why I'd rather have ace OCs than having existing characters re-imagined as asexual. The temptation to try to find ways of putting them in the same relationships, with roughly the same motivations, just without sex/with very kind and altruistic sex, is too great.

I read a fic in Teen Wolf where Stiles was ace and Derek was... too traumatized by his past to want to have sex. And somehow that was supposed to work for them. :S

[melannen]

I mean. It could work. But it would have to work because of Stiles and Derek, not because one of them was ace and one was traumatized. 6_6 (And you know. You could have fic where Stiles was gay and Derek was ace and traumatized and it would have just as much chance of working, if they both wanted to try.)

[lannamichaels]

Oh man, now I really want to write some non-reciprocity stuff.

[melannen]

I would read all the non-reciprocity kinkfic!

There were a couple really good e/R ones (which I hope were not by you, because that would be embarrassing) where it was clearly Grantaire getting off on Enjolras being unattainable and not interested in sex with him, and Enjolras being like "if you get off on me being unattainable, I can... keep being unattainable? I'm happy with that, so if you're actually happy with it too---" and Grantaire is like "sweet."

(Which is related to, but still not exactly the same as, the whole stone/lithosexuality thing.)

(And there's also the more sex-focused version of that, which tend to be more "I like helping you get off but I really honestly do not care if I do" (or vice versa). That can also be fun. More likely to go terribly wrong in the writing, though.)

[recessional]

This . . . is one of those things where I totally get what you're ranting about, but on the other hand for me it comes down to characters, and what sub-cultures and micro-cultures they move in.

Because, like . . . sometimes "no, I'm a lesbian" means "fuck off and die". But sometimes it also actually means "this no doesn't mean you're inherently unattractive, you're just unattractive to ME because $reason" because you know sometimes frankly if Bob were the gender you find attractive you'd jump him in a heartbeat . . . but he's not. And I personally have more than once gone with the slide of "no, I'm ace*" (or fib a bit and go with lesbian) early on in an interaction because I just want to skip anyone getting their hopes up, not because I think they'll be anything but appropriately behaved later if I let the flirting keep happening/let them work up to flirting, but because whether or not they behave well, disappointment is a legit response to being turned down and other people being sad and disappointed even if they are not pressuring me at all is awkward and unpleasant for me.

Because people being unhappy or Down period is awkward and unpleasant for me. So I would rather establish right out front that there is no chance, at all, ever that I want to sleep with you, for a reason that has nothing to do with you, so that we can skip that before anyone gets their hopes up.

So like I totally know what you mean, but on the other hand I am actually also against Firmly Stating that your Bailey example is literally the only "healthy" way for that conversation to go (or that Bailey is somehow Not Allowed to be disappointed, or that his disappointment would be invisible and not something Ash would care about even if Bailey answers exactly that way, because no I really DON'T want to make a cake with you if you are putting yourself through emotional pain in order to Perform Being A Good Person, I would really rather you go home and cry and be frustrated for a while?), or that Ash would inherently never choose to disclose upfront. Because hello, I and my life am actually living proof that this is not true.

Sooo yea.

*actually I'm demi, but bluntly trying to explain that is more problems than it's worth and for people I have not known for, you know, long enough to have built up the emotional connection to potentially feel attraction PERIOD, I might as well be ace, because Jesus Christ if you're looking for sex spending the next five years around me is ludicrous and creepy.

[melannen]

Yeah, I mean.... I don't have any problem with that conversation happening in fic? Or in RL. And that conversation can happen in all sorts of ways among people who are good people - like, if I say "no, I'm asexual" it doesn't mean the person who asked is a creep, or even that they'd be wrong to be unhappy, it just means I don't want them being upset to be a thing I have to deal with today, right? Which is as much on me as on them, but it's definitely not about how we should definitely get married and have babies together.

My issue is when the fics use those conversations as a way of signposting "this person is a perfect cinnamon roll and the ace character should totally agree to a long-term relationship with them, because they have demonstrated via this short exchange that they understand everything in a way nobody ever has before and will never pressure them or make them feel bad."

And I do not want to say "nobody should ever write this". I understand about people wanting fantasy in fic! And I understand about learning the kind of low standards that mean "they didn't laugh in my face when I came out so it's clearly meant to be 4ever." But it's not my fantasy. And it seems to be becoming the new Standard Ace Fic narrative. So it's currently annoying me a lot.

[zlabya]

Thanks for this very educational post--and for ranting in such an articulate and non-profane manner!

[umadoshi]

This is a great post. ^_^

And I'm trying to keep this fairly short, because it's so fandom-specific, but:

I interpret the female lead in Newsflesh as demi, so I write her that way, but I almost never mention it in fic (there's no need, given the context). But I quite often see people partway through the series reading her as ace, which has two (slightly contradictory) results in my head:

1) it makes me a bit sad, because she's almost certainly not, and I know finding a well-written ace character is rare, so I totally get why people are so pleased when they think she is.

2) it kinda makes me want to get back to my WIP where she is ace, because the "almost certainly" doesn't mean there isn't an arguable case for it, but so far I don't feel sure enough of doing it well, so that hasn't happened. ^^;


To bring this comment back to something more relevant to you, I just read Imperial Radch fairly recently and also really enjoyed that aspect of the books. ^_^

[lilysea]

while I fight off small angry mustelids

Okay, your phrasing amused/impressed me. ^_^

But also sympathy re weasels.

[sophia_sol]

You know, I didn't realize until reading this post just how little reading of acefic I do these days. Apparently I unconsciously made the decision to just....not read acefic unless it was by an author I already trust. I feel like that decision is going really well for me, given what you outline about current trends!

[violetemerald]

I was happy to find this post because it was linked here: http://aceadmiral.tumblr.com/post/134956174133/writingfromfactorx-aceadmiral-you-wanted-to ;)

It's been fascinating to read the post AND the discussion in the comments.

I... am definitely someone who in real life has turned down someone because I'm asexual and also used being asexual as an excuse for not wanting sex... but... in fic things can be so clumsy and really I'm probably too aromantic for 95% of ace fic out there, because it's usually a bit too shippy for my taste, and idk. I just hope when I attempted to write ace fic twice, I did a better job. I am pretty sure I did not assume awkwardness wasn't awkward, and while there's always room for improvement, the specifics and nuance of what being ace means to different characters was always important for me to flesh out. I hope to write another ace-fic one day, you know? So these perspectives will now be in my mind and I'm grateful for that.

[stultiloquentia]

This is a good and useful post. Also, you have smart commenters. Bookmarking.

[melannen]

I do have smart commenters! This is true. It's so nice to be able to post something like this and know that when I screw something up, I will be gently assisted by commenters who are both smart and kind. ^_^