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On original fic and fanfic
So, re: the debate going around about whether AO3 should allow original stuff in with the fanworks:
There are some people who want to keep a wall between original and fan fiction, and want to keep AO3 limited to fan writers. And I can see their point - I, too, am far less likely to read something if it's original: it's harder work to read, less likely to be id-tastic, when I'm in the mood for fanwork I don't want original, and either the average quality of original fic is less, or I simply don't have good enough filters for finding the good stuff with original as compared to fan work. Plus, many original writing communities are not only very different in culture to fanwriting communities, some of them are openly hostile to fanwriting, or to some of the values that my particular fanwriting community espouses.
The problem I have with that viewpoint is that the separation between original and fan work *isn't* a wall. It is, at best, a long sloping gradient with something on it that might be an attempt at a wall that has fallen over in places and wasn't very straight to begin with (and has only been there for a paltry few decades anyway.) The boundary between original and fan work is not a hard boundary. People have brought up historical RPF several times already, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only the tip of the iceberg.
I write stuff that is definitely fanfiction. I write stuff that is definitely original fiction. And I write stuff that, um, I have no bloody idea if it's one or the other.
And the thing that attracted me, as an author, to AO3, is that it's one archive where I don't have to worry if my fanwork is "enough" for it. Is it slashy enough, or too slashy? Shippy enough, or too shippy? Too porny or not porny enough? Too long or too short, not canonical enough, not finished enough, too crossovery, too script-y or meta-y or poem-y to be a proper story, not angsty enough, too much or not enough... on AO3 I can just put everything up, as a proper archive, without having to stress over categories.
I would love if "not fan-fic-y enough" was one of those categories I didn't have to worry about on AO3. And since - *for me* - the most important role of AO3 is to be an archive for fanwriters to universally preserve and organize their work, I want all the edge cases to be allowed; if that means blanket allowing original fiction (and I suspect it does), then so be it. I would, however, support a restriction that every author account must have at least one definite fanwork uploaded, to preserve the archive as primarily fannish and to filter out people who are hostile to fanfic culture. And a rule that any original work hosted on AO3 must allow derivative work.
And, sheerly out of curiosity (and not intended to be anyone's opinion on what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3): Here is a poll about some of those "edge" cases. What do you think, fandom-at-large? Original or fanwork? (And no, you don't get tickyboxes or third options. You must make a judgement! Like archives always make me do!)
Historical RPF about dead people!
Non-historical RPF about living people!
Historical fic set in a specific place and time but with mostly-original characters (because the people I'm writing about went unrecorded by history!)
Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!
A story set in fandom with characters who are all recognizeable fangirl achetypes!
A story based on a story my great-grandma wrote that was only ever published in a tiny edition!
A story based on something in my high school literary magazine!
Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel!
My original story that my friend pulished fic about before my story was finished!
A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!
A story where my original characters meet fandom characters!
A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!
A fusion where my original characters are put into a fandom-canon universe but no canon characters appear!
A crossover where my original characters meet me and my friends!
A crossover where my original characters meet my friend's original characters!
A story about recognizable living real people where all the names have been elided or changed!
A story about anthropomorphized objects or concepts!
A story about anthropomorphized *fannish* objects or concepts!
A retelling of a myth or fairy tale where all of the names, the setting, most of the details and the ending are different!
A retelling of a myth or fairy tale to make it work in the framework of my original universe or with my original characters!
An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!
A side story to my fanfic epic, about two original characters from the epic, which based only on internal evidence could be set in a non-fannish world!
A novel set in [fandom A] that's all about original characters who live around the world from canon events so the only explicit reference to canon is passing allusions to distant events!
An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!
A novel about characters that started out as fanfic OCs or AUs of canon characters but I have deliberately moved outside the fandom context!
A shared world written by many authors with no "primary" text or "series bible"!
Biblefic!
A slashy story about an angel that draws heavily on traditional Western angelology and eschatology, including [list of canon texts in original sense of canon texts], but is not based on specific text!
A Lovecraftian horror story that mentions the Necronomicon but is otherwise completely original!
A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!
A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)
A professionally published story using other authors' characters and settings that the pro author loudly insists is not fanfic!
(I will stop there before poll gets even longer, but for the record, none of these are hypothetical cases - they are all either things I personally have written, or things other people who identify as fanwriters have done that I could point you to.)
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P.S. I see you in there, High Wizardry, you can't hide!I found myself mostly answering "original", which...not only goes against my principles but almost certainly comes out of the fact that I still define myself as someone who mainly writes original fic and dabbles in fanfic. (She says, even as she tinkers on her Holmes stories while her original novels languish.)
I would originally have said "no original fic", but I have very rapidly come around to the idea that more is more. Personally I think that as long as the policy states that the AO3 is not a self-publishing venue, there should be fairly loose rules. More like guidelines, really.
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I mean, I'm pretty sure Diane Duane doesn't mind, but if I was going to pick one of her novels as Dr. Who fanfic, I'm pretty sure it would be the one with the gay Prydonian schoolboys who have secret truenames and the non-temporally-linear race that keeps copies of its ancestors around. :D
And, ooh, I like the idea of emphasizing that it's not a publishing venue and it's not appropriate for work that might evetually be sold professionally. That would probably keep out most of the real undesirables anyway...
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(My Who knowledge is minimal and I'm exhausted, thus not parsing irony very well atm.)
And, yes. I think we could get a situation that is acceptable to most people by just saying that the AO3 isn't a place to post works that you want to publish either profesionally or
self-ly(autonomously?) autonomously.P.S. I'm reading Bucketeers as we speak and I think I'm in love. Also I'm jealous that you got to read the book as a kid and I didn't.
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Also, Bucketeers yay! (totally fanfic.)
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Now that the Doors series is being published as e-books I can finally read it, hopefully.
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But, you know, I don't think a zine is the same thing as a self-publishing service like Lulu or iUniverse, which is what I was thinking of when I said "no self-publishing." Given the long history of zines in fandom, I certainly wouldn't want to say 'no zines'!
The at-cost thing is important, too--the other thing I don't think should be happening is people somehow trying to make money off of their content that's hosted on the AO3.
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I know hardly anything about Lulu, but it was my understanding that it's intended for things like novels and photo books and such (?). When I hear "zine" I think something that is shorter/has less pictures than those things, which is why I tend to assume that Lulu + zines is not a natural fit. But in your case I am sure you have a much better concept of what you mean when you say "zine" (because I am still thinking bound b&w photocopies, even though I know from experience that Kinko's can print some phenomenal desktop publishing products) and whether it would work with Lulu.
Yeah, I don't know, I guess I'm thinking that "zines" are shorter than "novels", to sum up. But I am almost certainly inventing a false distinction/dichotomy.
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The fic series I was thinking of would be somewhere over 100k words by the time we had it in shape for print, if we did go that way, and that's two NaNoWriMo "novels" at least. We were also talking about tying in fanart based on the series, laying out the epistolary fics as "letters" on the page (like, as sheets of paper with handwriting), etc.
On another note... I've mentioned elsewhere that I have an alternate history/historical RPF novel plotted out, and I spent a bit of time wondering whether I wanted to treat it as orig fic or fanfic. I decided that if/when I get around to writing it, I'd like to treat it as fanfic and do it here on DW, and post it as a WIP with hypertextual notes and background and whatnot, and encourage people to give feedback and play in the universe, and so on -- treating it as a fannish AU 'verse, where the fandom is that period of history. But I had also considered, if/when my own main plot arc was "finished", publishing it via Lulu, in the form factor of a novel, for those who'd like to read it straight through that way. So, there's two points of anecdata, for what they're worth.
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As an example that maybe would skim the fan-ethics and legality issues: if you wrote a Star Trek fic as a fic, and then got an opportunity to sell it to a for-profit, authorized Star Trek fan anthology while leaving it online, should that then be excluded from AO3? (Maybe? I don't know?)
In fan-ethically grayer areas, I certainly don't think someone selling her self-published Pride & Prejudice fic at cons and community fairs is suddenly no longer a fan author just because she's priced it high enough to cover her budget for the whole con weekend as well as the cost of printing. Or even if she puts a display in a local gift shop at the same markup. Or even, honestly, gets it listed on Amazon; as long as she's still allowing free distribution of e-copies, I view it as selling particular physical copies, not as selling the story itself.
I guess I make the distinction at the point where the right-to-publish itself is being given a monetary value, as opposed to individual copies of the books: the point at which copyright itself is being sold or leased. (Which, incidentally, would still leave the authorized fan anthology in limbo.)
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I think that's a much more sensible distinction; as I've been talking with
(Though, I don't think anthologies per se are actually in limbo--an anthology generally pays contributors a set fee for the right to reprint for a certain amount of time, amirite? I know for a fact that there are stories on the AO3 now which have been published in pro anthologies.)
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That's pretty harsh, what if you put your original or legally publishable fanwork up there in good faith and then it gets really popular and you decide to publish it? Should you be forbidden? This isn't entirely a hypothetical question for me as someone who occasionally daydreams about self publishing my Pride and Prejudice femslash novel when it's done (I don't think I actually will, but only because it would be a lot of effort to sell like 20 copies)
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I think a lot of people would object to that, too, though.
A self-publishing setup where you retain full control of all the intellectual property rights and can choose to keep it online wouldn't fall under my "sold professionally" category - I was thinking "sold the story itself to an editor" not "sold physical copies of the books". Though of course some people might not like that distiction either.
Ah, I think we have some unspoken assumptions in conflict
EDIT: Also, from your other comment: I realise it's not normal to keep novels online for free after they're published, and choosing to do so definitely limits one's publishing options. But it's not impossible or unknown. I must admit, I really haven't looked into the logistics (beyond looking into zine-ish publishing of my original comics) but afaict self publishing can be fairly effective for niche works and there's no publisher there to complain about putting stuff online for free. Cory Doctorow makes all his books available for free online, too, though he had the advantage of being famous to start with.
(I realised today that some of my frustration with this discussion is coming from the fact that as a fanartist with art on the AO3, and knowing that fanart is going to be fully supported by the AO3 in the hopefully near future, I apply any argument people make to fanart and fancomics as well as fic, but most people seem to only be thinking about fic)
Re: Ah, I think we have some unspoken assumptions in conflict
I mean, there are people who sell their original fic and legal fanfic (and, occasionally, outright fanfic) through the same methods we use for printed webcomics and fanart prints, but the real goal for most people thinking pro is to sell to a proper publisher or get a proper agent, and it's customary even when just shopping it around to an agent to take it off the web (Or take down the originial fic, if it's a serial-numbers job. Heck, it's not that uncommon to take down *all* your fanfic just because you've sold an unrelated novel.) And I've known some people to take it down even when they're just doing self-publishing and don't have an agent or editor telling them to. (And things like P&P slash and SH self-inserts do get pro-published through editors, pretty commonly now, so that was my first thought.)
Anyway! Yeah, Cory Doctorow gets away with it because he was already doing quite well with self-publishing and had the power in that relationship and he was willing to insist, but pretty much everyone in publishing is going to tell you "don't plan to be Cory Doctorow, it's not going to happen." He's still a special case, though I can maybe see a future not too far down the line where he isn't, depending on how the freedom of information laws over the next few years go. (It's becoming more common for pro-authors to web-publish stuff they're fairly sure they can't sell, too, and then ask for tips along Doctorow's original model. So we'll see how things go.)
Re: Ah, I think we have some unspoken assumptions in conflict
So: I guess prose publishing culture is such that while "available for free online" and "professionally published" aren't entirely mutually exclusive, in practice they do tend to be. I'm so far removed from the attitude of "I will put this for free online then when it's popular put it behind a pay wall" I have no idea how the AO3 should deal with it, but it does seem against the general principles of the archive.
Going back to my original point, I still think it's wrong to see "being on the AO3" and "Being sold commercially" as mutually exclusive, since there is that teeny subset of people who sell their prose yet keep it free online, and there's also going to be increasing numbers of people using the archive for fanart and comics where the culture is different.
Re: Ah, I think we have some unspoken assumptions in conflict
Commercial spam (including fandom-y commercial spam) is already prohibited by the TOS. If someone takes down their work before selling it elsewhere or posts a comic but also sells paper copies on their homepage or something, I don't think that would conflict with the TOS. But in either case, they wouldn't be able to use the AO3 to advertise.
Fun with TOSs
Re: Fun with TOSs
Re: Fun with TOSs
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