melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2010-04-10 02:49 pm

On original fic and fanfic

There are currently a couple of debates going around - about the problem of Sue-shaming and about mixing original fic and fanfic in communities and archives - that have combined with other stuff to make me want to write about original writing.

So, re: the debate going around about whether AO3 should allow original stuff in with the fanworks:

There are some people who want to keep a wall between original and fan fiction, and want to keep AO3 limited to fan writers. And I can see their point - I, too, am far less likely to read something if it's original: it's harder work to read, less likely to be id-tastic, when I'm in the mood for fanwork I don't want original, and either the average quality of original fic is less, or I simply don't have good enough filters for finding the good stuff with original as compared to fan work. Plus, many original writing communities are not only very different in culture to fanwriting communities, some of them are openly hostile to fanwriting, or to some of the values that my particular fanwriting community espouses.

The problem I have with that viewpoint is that the separation between original and fan work *isn't* a wall. It is, at best, a long sloping gradient with something on it that might be an attempt at a wall that has fallen over in places and wasn't very straight to begin with (and has only been there for a paltry few decades anyway.) The boundary between original and fan work is not a hard boundary. People have brought up historical RPF several times already, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only the tip of the iceberg.

I write stuff that is definitely fanfiction. I write stuff that is definitely original fiction. And I write stuff that, um, I have no bloody idea if it's one or the other.

And the thing that attracted me, as an author, to AO3, is that it's one archive where I don't have to worry if my fanwork is "enough" for it. Is it slashy enough, or too slashy? Shippy enough, or too shippy? Too porny or not porny enough? Too long or too short, not canonical enough, not finished enough, too crossovery, too script-y or meta-y or poem-y to be a proper story, not angsty enough, too much or not enough... on AO3 I can just put everything up, as a proper archive, without having to stress over categories.

I would love if "not fan-fic-y enough" was one of those categories I didn't have to worry about on AO3. And since - *for me* - the most important role of AO3 is to be an archive for fanwriters to universally preserve and organize their work, I want all the edge cases to be allowed; if that means blanket allowing original fiction (and I suspect it does), then so be it. I would, however, support a restriction that every author account must have at least one definite fanwork uploaded, to preserve the archive as primarily fannish and to filter out people who are hostile to fanfic culture. And a rule that any original work hosted on AO3 must allow derivative work.

And, sheerly out of curiosity (and not intended to be anyone's opinion on what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3): Here is a poll about some of those "edge" cases. What do you think, fandom-at-large? Original or fanwork? (And no, you don't get tickyboxes or third options. You must make a judgement! Like archives always make me do!)

Poll #2693 Is it original fic or is it fanfic?
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 128


Historical RPF about dead people!

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Fanfic
90 (70.9%)

Original
37 (29.1%)

Non-historical RPF about living people!

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Fanfic
112 (88.2%)

Original
15 (11.8%)

Historical fic set in a specific place and time but with mostly-original characters (because the people I'm writing about went unrecorded by history!)

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Fanfic
14 (11.0%)

Original
113 (89.0%)

Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!

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Fanfic
44 (34.9%)

Original
82 (65.1%)

A story set in fandom with characters who are all recognizeable fangirl achetypes!

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Fanfic
92 (73.0%)

Original
34 (27.0%)

A story based on a story my great-grandma wrote that was only ever published in a tiny edition!

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Fanfic
87 (69.6%)

Original
38 (30.4%)

A story based on something in my high school literary magazine!

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Fanfic
86 (69.9%)

Original
37 (30.1%)

Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel!

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Fanfic
99 (80.5%)

Original
24 (19.5%)

My original story that my friend pulished fic about before my story was finished!

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Fanfic
7 (5.5%)

Original
120 (94.5%)

A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!

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Fanfic
53 (43.1%)

Original
70 (56.9%)

A story where my original characters meet fandom characters!

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Fanfic
125 (99.2%)

Original
1 (0.8%)

A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!

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Fanfic
55 (44.4%)

Original
69 (55.6%)

A fusion where my original characters are put into a fandom-canon universe but no canon characters appear!

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Fanfic
119 (94.4%)

Original
7 (5.6%)

A crossover where my original characters meet me and my friends!

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Fanfic
29 (23.6%)

Original
94 (76.4%)

A crossover where my original characters meet my friend's original characters!

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Fanfic
63 (51.2%)

Original
60 (48.8%)

A story about recognizable living real people where all the names have been elided or changed!

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Fanfic
56 (44.8%)

Original
69 (55.2%)

A story about anthropomorphized objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
39 (31.5%)

Original
85 (68.5%)

A story about anthropomorphized *fannish* objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
92 (73.6%)

Original
33 (26.4%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale where all of the names, the setting, most of the details and the ending are different!

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Fanfic
42 (33.3%)

Original
84 (66.7%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale to make it work in the framework of my original universe or with my original characters!

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Fanfic
33 (26.6%)

Original
91 (73.4%)

An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!

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Fanfic
57 (45.6%)

Original
68 (54.4%)

A side story to my fanfic epic, about two original characters from the epic, which based only on internal evidence could be set in a non-fannish world!

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Fanfic
91 (72.8%)

Original
34 (27.2%)

A novel set in [fandom A] that's all about original characters who live around the world from canon events so the only explicit reference to canon is passing allusions to distant events!

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Fanfic
112 (88.9%)

Original
14 (11.1%)

An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!

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Fanfic
95 (75.4%)

Original
31 (24.6%)

A novel about characters that started out as fanfic OCs or AUs of canon characters but I have deliberately moved outside the fandom context!

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Fanfic
24 (19.2%)

Original
101 (80.8%)

A shared world written by many authors with no "primary" text or "series bible"!

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Fanfic
28 (22.6%)

Original
96 (77.4%)

Biblefic!

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Fanfic
106 (84.1%)

Original
20 (15.9%)

A slashy story about an angel that draws heavily on traditional Western angelology and eschatology, including [list of canon texts in original sense of canon texts], but is not based on specific text!

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Fanfic
32 (25.8%)

Original
92 (74.2%)

A Lovecraftian horror story that mentions the Necronomicon but is otherwise completely original!

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Fanfic
48 (38.7%)

Original
76 (61.3%)

A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!

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Fanfic
41 (33.9%)

Original
80 (66.1%)

A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)

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Fanfic
62 (49.6%)

Original
63 (50.4%)

A professionally published story using other authors' characters and settings that the pro author loudly insists is not fanfic!

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Fanfic
104 (84.6%)

Original
19 (15.4%)



(I will stop there before poll gets even longer, but for the record, none of these are hypothetical cases - they are all either things I personally have written, or things other people who identify as fanwriters have done that I could point you to.)

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-10 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought the point of keeping AO3 fanworks-only was because original works already have legal protection, not because they're generally crappier?
cypher: (wuzzle pirate)

[personal profile] cypher 2010-04-10 07:00 pm (UTC)(link)
...OW that was hard to do. And I had to skip a few questions for bias.

I...seem to come down on the side of "yeah, it's fanfic" more often than not, though I'm still struggling with how to define the reason I make that call.
kiwikiwi: Colette Brunell and Marta Lualdi, Tales of Symphonia (KoR) (ToS: Re-flowering you)

[personal profile] kiwikiwi 2010-04-10 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I had difficulty with this one
A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!

is this, then... taking a source's characters and moving them into your own setting?

Or an au of your own setting and characters, meaning like ..that scene you really wanted to write but just couldn't make it work with the rest of the plot, sort of thing?
cypher: (follow me)

[personal profile] cypher 2010-04-10 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
...I totally ship the non-canon pairings in my original settings, omg. I don't write it very often, though, because I keep going "but this is out of character!" :x
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2010-04-10 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
This poll is ridiculously interesting.

There were a couple where I wished I had other options - "parody" or "meta" or "commentary" - but I ended up lumping those under "original." F'rinstance, "A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!" is just what it says: commentary. Same with "An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!", which is, well, parody.

I'm kind of boggling at "Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!" Doesn't that cover huge chunks of contemporary original fiction? Think of every franchise you know that's set in NYC. Are those all supposed to be fanfiction? Of what?

[edited for clarity]

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-10 07:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh! Thanks for the clarification on the non-advocacy of AO3, because I had no clue (I only used it once for Yuletide) and had all this time thought that because AO3 was created by OTW, and because it's called an archive of our own meaning (I assumed) not hosted by a company that would pull it at the first tap on the shoulder from the copyright holder, that its primary purpose was being a legal safe haven for fanfic (or at least one that would fight if a work were challenged). Like you say, it seemed obvious. I'll have to go back and reread the pro and con arguments of the ongoing debates.

I don't know how I feel about the likelihood of an original versus a fannish work being bad; I think it depends on the writer (I guess that, should this go ahead, the original work submitted would be written by authors who otherwise specialise in fanfic and have used the archive before) and the main - if not only - reason a particular writer's fanfic could be better than their original stuff lies in the plethora of things s/he doesn't have to write because it's already familiar to readers. If the writer is worth their salt, I should think their original fic would be worth my time.

I just filled out the poll, and while a few questions made me think hard (and then go with the less invalid option, if I'm making sense) I used the non/originality of the world rather than the characters as the main criterion.
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2010-04-10 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
That was my first reaction, and I'm really surprised to hear that it's not a main argument in the debate.

The first thing I asked when looking at each of the examples in this poll was "Could you sell it without being on dicey legal ground?" If you can, it's probably not a "transformative work" of the kind that needs the OTW's protection. (There are some obvious exceptions, such as fic for series whose copyright has expired, but you get the general idea.)

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-10 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
There were a couple where I wished I had other options - "parody" or "meta" or "commentary"

Me too; I keep going ack to the legal side of things but AFAIK parody and commentary are, while derivations of sorts and thus not "original", forms of creative thinking and writing protected in ways that fanfic is not.
naraht: Moonrise over Earth (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-04-10 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
...I can't even begin to answer these questions.

But I'm fascinated by the answers! It was a brilliant idea to do a poll.
torachan: (Default)

[personal profile] torachan 2010-04-10 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I originally thought allowing original fic was a good idea, but then some arguments persuaded me against it, especially the idea that the archive might get overwhelmed by non-fannish types, some of whom could be actively hostile to fanfic. But I like the idea of your rules. That would keep out people who are hostile to fanworks.
naraht: Moonrise over Earth (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-04-10 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
OK, I'll do my best! I'm going to try to answer on instinct, with the answers that I would have given before I started all this pondering and questioning my assumptions.

ETA: From having tried the poll, the lesson I've learned is that I tend to want to err on the side of "fanfic" when in doubt. But I would have answered the RPF question differently if it had said "historical fiction" rather than RPF, and I would have answered the Biblefic question differently if it hadn't used the term "Biblefic".
Edited 2010-04-10 20:22 (UTC)
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2010-04-10 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, you can definitely have fiction of any kind that includes commentary! That's not the relevant point to whether or not it's fanfiction. What I'm trying to get at is that a story can be related to another source, through these other methods such as critique and parody, without necessarily being fanfiction of that other source.

A sci-fi story with all original characters that deconstructs tropes used in Star Wars would not be, whereas a sci-fi story with Luke and Leia that deconstructs tropes used in Star Wars would. Wicked makes sense as Oz fic; 30 Rock does not make sense as SNL fic. And so on.

In terms of RPF versus "original fiction which includes real elements", I think the relevant question is whether there's something fictionalized in the story. Mitchell Hundred's NYC does not exist; Olbermann's NYC does. Character!Stephen does not exist; real!Stephen does. Thus, a story in which Olbermann and r!Stephen have a conversation which is entirely made up by the author would count as fanfiction; a story in which an original character fangirls c!Stephen would also count; but a story about an original character who fangirls r!Stephen or Olbermann would not. (Unless she meets them, and they end up becoming bestest friends or going on Magical Space Adventures or what have you. In which case it's back to being fanfic, if probably Sue!fic.)
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-10 08:26 pm (UTC)(link)
If I may be so bold, the point is not allowing non-fannish types to post there. They already can, if they write something lj fandom considers fannish (even if they don't consider themselves fans--though, er, why would they want to?). The point is that there are already fannish types for whom the fandom experience also has original works with fannish sensibilities.

I personally really doubt we will be deluged with non-fandom people posting stuff. What it could happen is that fandom people post more original stories than other fandom people may want.

Re: [edited for clarity]

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-10 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee, I saw the Zvi post linked to from metafandom but I then carried on reading other things because I come from a distinctly different position (in short: with original works, if the characters or the world don't grab me I can at least give marks for effort, whereas fanfic has to convince me it's *not* coasting on shortcuts) and this is something where I'm very each-to-their-own so I didn't want to go argue.
pseudo_tsuga: ([Kate Beaton] reading is crazy)

[personal profile] pseudo_tsuga 2010-04-10 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, some of those polls are very close and some are even tied! I thought anthropomor fic would be solidly in the fanfic side.
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2010-04-10 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, definitely. Like I said, it's a starting point, not an end-all be-all rule.

I think all fanfiction has the legally protected right to exist, to be written however the writer wants, and to be shared freely. (No matter how hard Anne McCaffrey tries to fight it.) But there are some things that you need permission from the original copyright holder to sell. In those cases, if you get that permission, it's probably an official spin-off (e.g. the various lines of Star Wars novels), and if you don't, it's probably fanfiction.
naraht: Moonrise over Earth (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-04-10 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
The first thing I asked when looking at each of the examples in this poll was "Could you sell it without being on dicey legal ground?" If you can, it's probably not a "transformative work" of the kind that needs the OTW's protection.

So this definition really does exclude historical RPF from the big tent, I'm thinking.
naraht: Moonrise over Earth (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-04-10 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
The point is that there are already fannish types for whom the fandom experience also has original works with fannish sensibilities.

This seems to me to get right at the heart of the matter. And so it becomes a "who gets to define fandom?" question.

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