melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2010-04-10 02:49 pm

On original fic and fanfic

There are currently a couple of debates going around - about the problem of Sue-shaming and about mixing original fic and fanfic in communities and archives - that have combined with other stuff to make me want to write about original writing.

So, re: the debate going around about whether AO3 should allow original stuff in with the fanworks:

There are some people who want to keep a wall between original and fan fiction, and want to keep AO3 limited to fan writers. And I can see their point - I, too, am far less likely to read something if it's original: it's harder work to read, less likely to be id-tastic, when I'm in the mood for fanwork I don't want original, and either the average quality of original fic is less, or I simply don't have good enough filters for finding the good stuff with original as compared to fan work. Plus, many original writing communities are not only very different in culture to fanwriting communities, some of them are openly hostile to fanwriting, or to some of the values that my particular fanwriting community espouses.

The problem I have with that viewpoint is that the separation between original and fan work *isn't* a wall. It is, at best, a long sloping gradient with something on it that might be an attempt at a wall that has fallen over in places and wasn't very straight to begin with (and has only been there for a paltry few decades anyway.) The boundary between original and fan work is not a hard boundary. People have brought up historical RPF several times already, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only the tip of the iceberg.

I write stuff that is definitely fanfiction. I write stuff that is definitely original fiction. And I write stuff that, um, I have no bloody idea if it's one or the other.

And the thing that attracted me, as an author, to AO3, is that it's one archive where I don't have to worry if my fanwork is "enough" for it. Is it slashy enough, or too slashy? Shippy enough, or too shippy? Too porny or not porny enough? Too long or too short, not canonical enough, not finished enough, too crossovery, too script-y or meta-y or poem-y to be a proper story, not angsty enough, too much or not enough... on AO3 I can just put everything up, as a proper archive, without having to stress over categories.

I would love if "not fan-fic-y enough" was one of those categories I didn't have to worry about on AO3. And since - *for me* - the most important role of AO3 is to be an archive for fanwriters to universally preserve and organize their work, I want all the edge cases to be allowed; if that means blanket allowing original fiction (and I suspect it does), then so be it. I would, however, support a restriction that every author account must have at least one definite fanwork uploaded, to preserve the archive as primarily fannish and to filter out people who are hostile to fanfic culture. And a rule that any original work hosted on AO3 must allow derivative work.

And, sheerly out of curiosity (and not intended to be anyone's opinion on what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3): Here is a poll about some of those "edge" cases. What do you think, fandom-at-large? Original or fanwork? (And no, you don't get tickyboxes or third options. You must make a judgement! Like archives always make me do!)

Poll #2693 Is it original fic or is it fanfic?
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 128


Historical RPF about dead people!

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Fanfic
90 (70.9%)

Original
37 (29.1%)

Non-historical RPF about living people!

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Fanfic
112 (88.2%)

Original
15 (11.8%)

Historical fic set in a specific place and time but with mostly-original characters (because the people I'm writing about went unrecorded by history!)

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Fanfic
14 (11.0%)

Original
113 (89.0%)

Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!

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Fanfic
44 (34.9%)

Original
82 (65.1%)

A story set in fandom with characters who are all recognizeable fangirl achetypes!

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Fanfic
92 (73.0%)

Original
34 (27.0%)

A story based on a story my great-grandma wrote that was only ever published in a tiny edition!

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Fanfic
87 (69.6%)

Original
38 (30.4%)

A story based on something in my high school literary magazine!

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Fanfic
86 (69.9%)

Original
37 (30.1%)

Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel!

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Fanfic
99 (80.5%)

Original
24 (19.5%)

My original story that my friend pulished fic about before my story was finished!

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Fanfic
7 (5.5%)

Original
120 (94.5%)

A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!

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Fanfic
53 (43.1%)

Original
70 (56.9%)

A story where my original characters meet fandom characters!

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Fanfic
125 (99.2%)

Original
1 (0.8%)

A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!

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Fanfic
55 (44.4%)

Original
69 (55.6%)

A fusion where my original characters are put into a fandom-canon universe but no canon characters appear!

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Fanfic
119 (94.4%)

Original
7 (5.6%)

A crossover where my original characters meet me and my friends!

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Fanfic
29 (23.6%)

Original
94 (76.4%)

A crossover where my original characters meet my friend's original characters!

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Fanfic
63 (51.2%)

Original
60 (48.8%)

A story about recognizable living real people where all the names have been elided or changed!

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Fanfic
56 (44.8%)

Original
69 (55.2%)

A story about anthropomorphized objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
39 (31.5%)

Original
85 (68.5%)

A story about anthropomorphized *fannish* objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
92 (73.6%)

Original
33 (26.4%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale where all of the names, the setting, most of the details and the ending are different!

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Fanfic
42 (33.3%)

Original
84 (66.7%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale to make it work in the framework of my original universe or with my original characters!

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Fanfic
33 (26.6%)

Original
91 (73.4%)

An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!

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Fanfic
57 (45.6%)

Original
68 (54.4%)

A side story to my fanfic epic, about two original characters from the epic, which based only on internal evidence could be set in a non-fannish world!

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Fanfic
91 (72.8%)

Original
34 (27.2%)

A novel set in [fandom A] that's all about original characters who live around the world from canon events so the only explicit reference to canon is passing allusions to distant events!

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Fanfic
112 (88.9%)

Original
14 (11.1%)

An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!

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Fanfic
95 (75.4%)

Original
31 (24.6%)

A novel about characters that started out as fanfic OCs or AUs of canon characters but I have deliberately moved outside the fandom context!

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Fanfic
24 (19.2%)

Original
101 (80.8%)

A shared world written by many authors with no "primary" text or "series bible"!

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Fanfic
28 (22.6%)

Original
96 (77.4%)

Biblefic!

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Fanfic
106 (84.1%)

Original
20 (15.9%)

A slashy story about an angel that draws heavily on traditional Western angelology and eschatology, including [list of canon texts in original sense of canon texts], but is not based on specific text!

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Fanfic
32 (25.8%)

Original
92 (74.2%)

A Lovecraftian horror story that mentions the Necronomicon but is otherwise completely original!

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Fanfic
48 (38.7%)

Original
76 (61.3%)

A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!

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Fanfic
41 (33.9%)

Original
80 (66.1%)

A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)

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Fanfic
62 (49.6%)

Original
63 (50.4%)

A professionally published story using other authors' characters and settings that the pro author loudly insists is not fanfic!

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Fanfic
104 (84.6%)

Original
19 (15.4%)



(I will stop there before poll gets even longer, but for the record, none of these are hypothetical cases - they are all either things I personally have written, or things other people who identify as fanwriters have done that I could point you to.)
cheyinka: A glowing blue sheep with green eyes (electric sheep)

[personal profile] cheyinka 2010-04-10 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I read the poll as something like, "You're paid $100 to read a story from each category and at the end say "fanfic" or "not fanfic"." So after I read a story about David Weber and John Ringo keeping a horde of zombies from rampaging through Austin, I mark the "not fanfic" box, and after I read a story about David Weber and John Ringo being devoured by a doomwhale while sailing between Tellesberg and Lizard Island, I mark the "fanfic" box.

[personal profile] melannen said it shouldn't be a matter of what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3 (or, one assumes, Dreamwidth, Fanfiction.net, or cheeringforthedoomwhales.com), so I didn't answer with "who might be excluded" in mind, either.

The only alternative that makes sense to me is "anything that the author claims is fanfiction, is fanfiction, and anything that the author claims is not fanfiction, is not fanfiction," which seems to include too much (e.g. fiction about anthropomorphized punctuation) and exclude too much (e.g. most if not all Star Wars Extended Universe works).
starlady: the OTW logo with text "fandom is my fandom" (fandom^2)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-04-10 10:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Why did you have to make me decide, ugh. P.S. I see you in there, High Wizardry, you can't hide!

I found myself mostly answering "original", which...not only goes against my principles but almost certainly comes out of the fact that I still define myself as someone who mainly writes original fic and dabbles in fanfic. (She says, even as she tinkers on her Holmes stories while her original novels languish.)

I would originally have said "no original fic", but I have very rapidly come around to the idea that more is more. Personally I think that as long as the policy states that the AO3 is not a self-publishing venue, there should be fairly loose rules. More like guidelines, really.
cesy: "Cesy" - An old-fashioned quill and ink (Default)

[personal profile] cesy 2010-04-10 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Interestingly, there were several things that I marked as original, but that I would still count as part of fannish culture and that I would want to see on the AO3.
majoline: picture of Majoline, mother of Bon Mucho in Loco Roco 2 (Default)

[personal profile] majoline 2010-04-10 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay so I completely can't do this poll and I will tell you why - it's the building upon previous history.

If I work my way from the top, I put all of them in fanfiction. If I start at the bottom, most of them end up original fic.

I have a problem with this distinction anyway, because of my love of Shakespeare and mythology. Where is the line? Is there a line besides the one dictated by law and traditions?

If people want to participate in fandom and not make us pay, then they can play too.

I mean, where does the line end? I'm kinda leery still about living people but I kinda don't know if that's my only line considering I've been considering writing fannishly about my life.

(but I would love to read all of those examples! I think I recognize quite a few of them! Maybe later we could get the names?)
cheyinka: A glowing blue sheep with green eyes (electric sheep)

also:

[personal profile] cheyinka 2010-04-10 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, for me "fandom" is bigger than "the people who write fanfic", otherwise I wouldn't have been able to describe myself as part of Firefly fandom until March when I wrote a less-than-500-word sequel to someone else's fanfic.
naraht: Moonrise over Earth (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-04-10 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)
(but I would love to read all of those examples! I think I recognize quite a few of them! Maybe later we could get the names?)

Another vote for the names here! Maybe with another poll, so we can compare our assessment of the actual fanworks to our assessment of the abstract situation.
starlady: holmes holds his spyglass against watson's chest (intimacy)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-04-10 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Wait, you weren't thinking of High Wizardry when you wrote the one about the Doctor making a cameo in an otherwise original novel?

(My Who knowledge is minimal and I'm exhausted, thus not parsing irony very well atm.)

And, yes. I think we could get a situation that is acceptable to most people by just saying that the AO3 isn't a place to post works that you want to publish either profesionally or self-ly (autonomously?) autonomously.

P.S. I'm reading Bucketeers as we speak and I think I'm in love. Also I'm jealous that you got to read the book as a kid and I didn't.
ratcreature: Flail! (flail)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-10 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
But who is supposed to decide if not you? I mean, even if the archive allowed original fic (and I hope it won't) it would still not be a place where you could put everything you ever created, because otherwise it would not be a fanwork archive at all anymore but a social webhosting space where people put personal archives of whatever and share tags and a search engine. You would still need to decide which of your things you could archive there and which not. To restrict archiving fic to things authors themselves see as "fanfic" is not any different.

Unless you really want something that stores everything for anyone or even just everything for anyone with one fannish token in their works, but that would mean storing all pictures (because the boundaries for pictures are not any clearer between fannish and original), to all knitting patterns (because gryffindor sweaters or knit Merlin puppets are fancraft and there is a sliding scale for knit works just like for fic), all clothing patterns and photos (because costume making is fannish, and most would have no trouble for people to upload their costume photo as fanart), and eventually once it allows vids that would mean all videos too?

I mean, there is nothing that makes original fic extra special or more complicated than other fanworks. I think it is important to keep in mind that the intention is a space for fanworks, even if boundaries are fuzzy in places. And I agree with copracat that considering all the variable definitions of "fandom" the easiest way to do that is to just depend on the judgment of the uploader whether they think what they upload is a fanwork or not.
amaresu: Sapphire and Steel from the opening (stargate-vala)

[personal profile] amaresu 2010-04-10 11:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I can't even answer most of these. I honestly don't know if they count as fanfic or original and I think my opinion would change pretty easily.

I think you're argument has been made.
starlady: (the wizard's oath)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-04-10 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Totally fanfic! It needs to be a Yuletide fandom, last year. Mymy/Mav/Vyssu 4EVAR.

Now that the Doors series is being published as e-books I can finally read it, hopefully.
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
Uh! I actually put it as original, too, but not because I don't think they belong in fandom. But then, I'm very firmly on the camp of those that think writing and reading original fic is already part of the Fandom experience for many many people, and that that's OK; what's important and definition, for me, it's that as creative endeavours they're performed in fandom, by fans, for* other fans.


*Various definitions of 'for', of course.
rainbow: (Default)

[personal profile] rainbow 2010-04-11 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
I found this via a link on my network page, and it's fascinating, and much more complicated than the definition of fanfic I'm familiar with from the 70s (which is simply a fan-written story based on another person's source material, ie using their characters, setting, etc.).

So I've tried answering from that perspective, but a few were hard because there weren't enough details, like the great-gm story -- is it a retelling of the story or playing in ggm's universe? The first I'd call original, the 2nd fanfic. Ditto lit mag. (And ditto the other questions re retellings of myths and traditional fairy tales, vs modern ones with a known author.)

Some questions weren't clear to me. Does "non-canon AU" mean non-canon AU of *someone else's source material* or one's own source material? First would be ff to me, 2nd would be orig.

Does "fandom characters" mean fictional characters, or does it mean people involved in fandom? If it's using other people's created characters, I'd call it ff.

Edited 2010-04-11 00:18 (UTC)
elf: My icon (really) (My icon (really))

[personal profile] elf 2010-04-11 12:20 am (UTC)(link)
An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!

You broke my brain.

I've seen AUs of AUs, but not 3rd-gen AUs, and not minor characters of those taken into their own AU. I WANT EXAMPLES.

Um. And I clicked "fanfic" on almost everything, and left a couple blank 'cos I'd have to think of it as case-by-case decisions (which means it'd be impossible to make a policy about it those).

I don't want AO3 to host "original fic." But I can't think of any way to phrase a "no original fic" policy that doesn't exclude some types of fanfic. You left out the various gamerfic categories... story of our party of adventurers in a published dungeon-crawl module? Story of the adventurers' time between adventures? AU story where characters that were written up but never actually played have adventures not actually possible in that gaming system, but using some elements of the gameworld? (It's like OC historical fic, only in a non-historical setting. How far from the published details is it allowed to get before it stops being fanficcish and becomes an original setting?)

I don't want someone making those judgment calls. Don't want anyone at AO3 having to decide, "gee, is this *really* some kind of fanfic, or is it original fic?" (And let's not think of how this nightmare connects to fanart, okay? How do you tell the difference between a picture of an OFC exchange student on her way to Hogwarts and one who's "just" an original-art modern witch on a broom?)
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
I hate that question. Every time it gets asked, one part of my fannish experience gets invalidated by another part of my fannish experience. I guess that's the woe of the multi-fandom fan.
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 12:30 am (UTC)(link)
But was it a an original-fic-only community, or fanfic communities performing fandom differently? Because I'm in a fandom where original fic co-exists with fanfic (same people, same boards, same terminology, same themes, same clichés and tropes, etc, etc), and they would likely be people who would post it to ff.net if they were allowed.

I can't say that they won't be many many fics so. I don't know. German fandom apparently has many many original fic going on. My current fandom has a very modest amount, but it still exists. I'm still pretty doubtful the A03 would attract non fannish people. Like, really really doubtful.

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