(no subject)

[melannen]

There's a post going around tumblr from prokopetz about the three types of protagonists, as follows:

1. Pursues reasonable goals with unreasonable methods

2. Has sensible plans, but tremendously fucks up the execution

3. Relentlessly competent in pursuit of goals that are objectively deranged

and every time it goes by I want to do it as "Tag your OT3". So, here (feel free to fight me on these):

Eliot is 1. Hardison is 2. Parker is 3.

Luke is 1. Han is 2. Leia is 3.
Rey is 1. Finn is 2. Poe is 3.

McCoy is 1. Kirk is 2. Spock is 3.

Joe is 1. Methos is 2. MacLeod is 3.

Sybil is 1. Vimes is 2. Vetinari is 3.

Cable is 1. Vanessa is 2. Deadpool is 3.

Mercy of Kalr is 1. Seivarden is 2. Breq is 3.

Ray is 1. Ray is 2. Ben is 3.

Thomas is 1. Peter is 2. Bev is 3.

Harrow is 1. Gideon is 2. Ianthe is 3.

Comments

[neotoma]

These are all accurate

[melannen]

It was suprisingly easy.

I think maybe in order to have an OT3 work with three protagonist types, you *have* to have a 2 (to get them into that situation in the first place), a 1 (to be willing to propose that they make it work) and a 3 (to actually be able to make it work.)

[lannamichaels]

Joe is 1. Methos is 2. MacLeod is 3.

This is so accurate, it hurts.

I will Fight You (tm) about Luke being 1. I don't feel like his goals are reasonable. Perhaps the twins share this characteristic. I'd suggest substiting with Lando, except I feel like his methods are reasonable. Hmm.

Miles Vorkosigan is unfortunately all three of them.

[neotoma]

Obi-Wan, maybe? Goal: Defeat the Empire! Method: Become ghost!

[lannamichaels]

I support this.

[melannen]

I feel like Obi-Wan is a 3 if you team him up with Qui-Gon, a 2 if you team him up with Anakin, and a 1 if you team him up with Luke, because he has something of the mirror to him.

[melannen]

I mean, both the Star Wars ones should really be OT4s, but this game doesn't work as well for OT4s.

I think if you swap out for the most canon-doable/least incesty version as an OT3, it becomes Lando is 1, Han is 2, Leia is 3.

It depends on how you define unreasonable, but I feel like "Make a deal with Darth Vader, and then welch on it", "Fly a rickety old freighter literally into the Death Star", and "Cheat at Sabaac" are all objectively not very reasonable, but his goals tend to be things like "maintain continuity of city administration" and "make a living", which only become unreasonable in context.

I mean, in general all of these depend on whether you consider 'defeat the all-powerful Evil Empire' a reasonable or unreasonable goal. But especially if you count sequel-trilogy as canon, Leia tends to have goals like "create an alliance out of squabbling rebel groups and use it to bring down the all-powerful empire, while a teenager" or "resign from a high political position in order to start another underground rebel group in order to fight an enemy most people don't think exists", and she someone manages to succeed at those.

Whereas Luke has goals like "Get off this boring planet", "rescue my friends", "prevent the bad guy from finding my friends", "start a school", and "stop getting other people killed". It's just that the strategies he chooses to accomplish these things are so batshit they obscure the modesty of the original goals.

[lannamichaels]

It depends on how you define unreasonable, but I feel like "Make a deal with Darth Vader, and then welch on it", "Fly a rickety old freighter literally into the Death Star", and "Cheat at Sabaac" are all objectively not very reasonable, but his goals tend to be things like "maintain continuity of city administration" and "make a living", which only become unreasonable in context.

Lando looks so much better by contrast compared to everyone he's standing next to XD

I consider Luke's most unreasonable goal and unreasonable method to both converge on Operation Save Darth Vader's Soul.

[beatrice_otter]

This is an amzing comment, and I love all of it. This is why I love both Luke and Lando.

I will point out, however, that LANDO was not the one who welched on the deal. That was Vader; Lando's reaction to being welched on, however, may be taken as extreme. Depending on how you interpret things.

[melannen]

Also, MacLeod would say he is 2 and Methos is 3, but he would be wrong.

Methos would loudly proclaim he is 2 but leave out the fact that it's only because half the time he fucks up his own plans, on purpose.


...I was actually considering including my Vorkosigan OT3 of Lord Miles Vorkosigan/Ekaterin Vorsoisson/Admiral Miles Naismith (who fit the pattern in that order) but unfortunately nobody has yet written me the fic where Ekaterin gets to have a wild fling with Naismith.

[azurelunatic]

Admiral Naismith is 1.
Lt. Vorkosigan is 2.
Auditor Vorkosigan is 3.

[princessofgeeks]

That's really fun!

[ratcreature]

I guess with Harry Potter, Harry is 1, Ron 2 and Hermione 3? It doesn't quite fit though. Maybe all three fall under 1.

[stellar_dust]

I'd reverse it -- so Hermione "if you betray us you will be DISFIGURED FOR LIFE" is 1, and Harry "DRACO MALFOY IS UP TO SOMETHING" is 3. But it's doesn't fit really will with them, no. Harry's main goal is just sort of, try not to die, and his method is basically stumble around until something works by accident (which it always does, so I've put him at 3 mostly out of pity).

[melannen]

I think this is tough partly because the fact that Harry Potter is a deliberate uneasy mix of high fantasy and school story means it's often quite confused about the various levels of stakes, and also because Ron and Hermione never quite reach the level of protagonist in their own right, which is what these descriptions are really meant for. They spend most of their onscreen time helping Harry with his goals, not pursuing their own, so defining them based on their own goals means extrapolating a ways out from canon.

But I would probably say Harry is 2 (he goes into most of the books with a plan of keep his head down, learn magic, spend time with his friends and win the Quidditch Cup, and fails miserably every time), Hermione is 3 (well often more like "relentlessly competent at using objectively deranged methods", the relentlessly competent and the objectively deranged are more relevant than the goals, but her personal goals tend to be things like "Take every single class that is offered even if that is more hours than there are in the day" or "teach Rita Skeeter a lesson"), and Ron is a tolerable 1, in that he does things like achieve "make friends at school" by befriending the Savior of the entire Wizarding World, etc.

[stellar_dust]

The first OT3 that came to mind was Jack/Will/Elizabeth, and I guess Will is 1 and Elizabeth is 3, but unfortunately it breaks down there because Jack pursues objectively deranged goals, with unreasonable methods, AND tremendously fucks up the execution.

[melannen]

The original thread points out that if all three apply to the same person, they are probably not actually a protagonist, and I think that may apply here.

Norrington makes a perfect 2, though.

[stultiloquentia]

Nie Mingjue is 1. Lan Xichen is 2. Jin Guangyao is 3.

...yup.

[lannamichaels]

I'd put JGY at 1.

[graveexcitement]

Mercy of Kalr is 1. Seivarden is 2. Breq is 3.

oh, absolutely

[melannen]

I don't think any of them would even argue with it! Well, maybe Mercy of Kalr. But I maintain that making Justice of Toren One Esk your captain is not a reasonable solution to any problem.

[kiezh]

This list is hilarious and also is highlighting for me how much I love type 3.

There's something so compelling about a really intense, highly skilled person who makes you want to beat them over the head with the "pick your battles. pick… pick fewer battles than that. put some battles back. that’s too many" tumblr post.

Has Girl Genius been done yet? I think I'd put Gil as 1, Tarvek as 2, and Agatha as 3, but I'm open to arguments.

[oracne]

LOL LOL LOL

[highlander_ii]

Harry Dresden is p much all 3 at least twice per book.


MCU - Peter Parker is 2; Tony is 3; not sure who is 1... Cap?

[melannen]

Yeah, it's tougher if you aren't working with a premade set of three you can compare against each other - I didn't list either of those fandoms because I don't have OT3s for them, just pairings + giant polycule.

But I would probably put Harry in 1? I'm a few books behind at this point, and also that's one where the scale changes so much over the series that what would be a reasonable goal to current Harry would've seemed objectively deranged to Book 1 Harry.

But if I was coming up with a plot for him, the initial goals would be things like "keep my family safe", "mildly annoy my favorite frenemy", "pay my rent". The methods he uses to achieve those things are so objectively deranged - "destroy an entire race of ancient immortal evil", "put an ordinary human on a level of power alongside the Queen of Winter", "fight God" - that it kind of obscures that those aren't, generally, his goals; those are ridiculous strategies for *achieving* goals like "get a good night's sleep."

Even when he's not being epic, he has goals like "get better at finding lost object for clients" that he solves not by, idk, learning psychometry, or making some street-level connections, no, he is going to hand-build an exact scale model of Chicago out of the original materials in his basement.