melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2010-04-10 02:49 pm

On original fic and fanfic

There are currently a couple of debates going around - about the problem of Sue-shaming and about mixing original fic and fanfic in communities and archives - that have combined with other stuff to make me want to write about original writing.

So, re: the debate going around about whether AO3 should allow original stuff in with the fanworks:

There are some people who want to keep a wall between original and fan fiction, and want to keep AO3 limited to fan writers. And I can see their point - I, too, am far less likely to read something if it's original: it's harder work to read, less likely to be id-tastic, when I'm in the mood for fanwork I don't want original, and either the average quality of original fic is less, or I simply don't have good enough filters for finding the good stuff with original as compared to fan work. Plus, many original writing communities are not only very different in culture to fanwriting communities, some of them are openly hostile to fanwriting, or to some of the values that my particular fanwriting community espouses.

The problem I have with that viewpoint is that the separation between original and fan work *isn't* a wall. It is, at best, a long sloping gradient with something on it that might be an attempt at a wall that has fallen over in places and wasn't very straight to begin with (and has only been there for a paltry few decades anyway.) The boundary between original and fan work is not a hard boundary. People have brought up historical RPF several times already, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only the tip of the iceberg.

I write stuff that is definitely fanfiction. I write stuff that is definitely original fiction. And I write stuff that, um, I have no bloody idea if it's one or the other.

And the thing that attracted me, as an author, to AO3, is that it's one archive where I don't have to worry if my fanwork is "enough" for it. Is it slashy enough, or too slashy? Shippy enough, or too shippy? Too porny or not porny enough? Too long or too short, not canonical enough, not finished enough, too crossovery, too script-y or meta-y or poem-y to be a proper story, not angsty enough, too much or not enough... on AO3 I can just put everything up, as a proper archive, without having to stress over categories.

I would love if "not fan-fic-y enough" was one of those categories I didn't have to worry about on AO3. And since - *for me* - the most important role of AO3 is to be an archive for fanwriters to universally preserve and organize their work, I want all the edge cases to be allowed; if that means blanket allowing original fiction (and I suspect it does), then so be it. I would, however, support a restriction that every author account must have at least one definite fanwork uploaded, to preserve the archive as primarily fannish and to filter out people who are hostile to fanfic culture. And a rule that any original work hosted on AO3 must allow derivative work.

And, sheerly out of curiosity (and not intended to be anyone's opinion on what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3): Here is a poll about some of those "edge" cases. What do you think, fandom-at-large? Original or fanwork? (And no, you don't get tickyboxes or third options. You must make a judgement! Like archives always make me do!)

Poll #2693 Is it original fic or is it fanfic?
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 128


Historical RPF about dead people!

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Fanfic
90 (70.9%)

Original
37 (29.1%)

Non-historical RPF about living people!

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Fanfic
112 (88.2%)

Original
15 (11.8%)

Historical fic set in a specific place and time but with mostly-original characters (because the people I'm writing about went unrecorded by history!)

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Fanfic
14 (11.0%)

Original
113 (89.0%)

Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!

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Fanfic
44 (34.9%)

Original
82 (65.1%)

A story set in fandom with characters who are all recognizeable fangirl achetypes!

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Fanfic
92 (73.0%)

Original
34 (27.0%)

A story based on a story my great-grandma wrote that was only ever published in a tiny edition!

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Fanfic
87 (69.6%)

Original
38 (30.4%)

A story based on something in my high school literary magazine!

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Fanfic
86 (69.9%)

Original
37 (30.1%)

Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel!

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Fanfic
99 (80.5%)

Original
24 (19.5%)

My original story that my friend pulished fic about before my story was finished!

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Fanfic
7 (5.5%)

Original
120 (94.5%)

A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!

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Fanfic
53 (43.1%)

Original
70 (56.9%)

A story where my original characters meet fandom characters!

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Fanfic
125 (99.2%)

Original
1 (0.8%)

A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!

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Fanfic
55 (44.4%)

Original
69 (55.6%)

A fusion where my original characters are put into a fandom-canon universe but no canon characters appear!

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Fanfic
119 (94.4%)

Original
7 (5.6%)

A crossover where my original characters meet me and my friends!

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Fanfic
29 (23.6%)

Original
94 (76.4%)

A crossover where my original characters meet my friend's original characters!

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Fanfic
63 (51.2%)

Original
60 (48.8%)

A story about recognizable living real people where all the names have been elided or changed!

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Fanfic
56 (44.8%)

Original
69 (55.2%)

A story about anthropomorphized objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
39 (31.5%)

Original
85 (68.5%)

A story about anthropomorphized *fannish* objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
92 (73.6%)

Original
33 (26.4%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale where all of the names, the setting, most of the details and the ending are different!

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Fanfic
42 (33.3%)

Original
84 (66.7%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale to make it work in the framework of my original universe or with my original characters!

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Fanfic
33 (26.6%)

Original
91 (73.4%)

An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!

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Fanfic
57 (45.6%)

Original
68 (54.4%)

A side story to my fanfic epic, about two original characters from the epic, which based only on internal evidence could be set in a non-fannish world!

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Fanfic
91 (72.8%)

Original
34 (27.2%)

A novel set in [fandom A] that's all about original characters who live around the world from canon events so the only explicit reference to canon is passing allusions to distant events!

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Fanfic
112 (88.9%)

Original
14 (11.1%)

An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!

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Fanfic
95 (75.4%)

Original
31 (24.6%)

A novel about characters that started out as fanfic OCs or AUs of canon characters but I have deliberately moved outside the fandom context!

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Fanfic
24 (19.2%)

Original
101 (80.8%)

A shared world written by many authors with no "primary" text or "series bible"!

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Fanfic
28 (22.6%)

Original
96 (77.4%)

Biblefic!

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Fanfic
106 (84.1%)

Original
20 (15.9%)

A slashy story about an angel that draws heavily on traditional Western angelology and eschatology, including [list of canon texts in original sense of canon texts], but is not based on specific text!

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Fanfic
32 (25.8%)

Original
92 (74.2%)

A Lovecraftian horror story that mentions the Necronomicon but is otherwise completely original!

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Fanfic
48 (38.7%)

Original
76 (61.3%)

A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!

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Fanfic
41 (33.9%)

Original
80 (66.1%)

A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)

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Fanfic
62 (49.6%)

Original
63 (50.4%)

A professionally published story using other authors' characters and settings that the pro author loudly insists is not fanfic!

View Answers

Fanfic
104 (84.6%)

Original
19 (15.4%)



(I will stop there before poll gets even longer, but for the record, none of these are hypothetical cases - they are all either things I personally have written, or things other people who identify as fanwriters have done that I could point you to.)
alias_sqbr: A cartoon cat saying Ham! (ham!)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-11 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
I realised I've been replying to people without actually commenting to you, so: I really like this poll! It hurt my brain, and made me realise just how inconsistent and bizarre my mental categorisations are.

(also I'm in the process of figuring out which dw account to comment from where, so I'm here under 2 usernames, hopefully people can figure out that sqbr=alias_sqbr :))
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Your poll broke my brain. I actually answered everything very sure of myself, and then a couple of hours later, still thinking about it, changed my mind. (For the record, for me it fell mostly to original when there was doubt; I now think I would say anything of them was fanwork if it were written/posted in a fannish context. Haven't changed my vote, and don't plan to unless you would prefer it, as I think you were looking for first impressions?)
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2010-04-11 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I want a "depends" option. :( But I did my best.
phoebe_zeitgeist: (meta)

[personal profile] phoebe_zeitgeist 2010-04-12 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
As your poll illustrates, there are always going to be grey areas and boundary issues. At the same time, though, I'd suggest that there might a relatively simple two-prong kind of test for whether something's fanfic or not. It would go something like this:

1. Is the work in question a substantial enough borrowing of a previous work that people who are aware of the earlier work would identify the new piece as a reworking of some or all of the original? (Obvious example: "West Side Story.") If yes, it's fanfic.

Or:

2. Does the work depend for its effectiveness on a reader's knowledge of and/or emotional investment in a particular outside canon,* whether that canon is a literary or media work or whether it's a body of knowledge about particular people, living or dead? If yes, again, it's fanfic.

Prong 2 would, as best I can tell, include RPF in general, as long as the Real People involved were sufficiently well-known for there to be something of a canon to have been developed, in the purest case by a kind of fandom (that is, people whose interest in the RPs is emotional and not purely scholarly). Certainly there might be judgment calls: a person could, for example, write a piece about Elizabeth I that assumed the reader would have no previous knowledge of Tudor England at all, let alone any knowledge of Elizabeth herself, and produce something that wasn't fanfic. But she could also write something that depended for its impact on a reader coming in with detailed knowledge of Elizabeth's life and reign, something that would only be intelligible to fans of Elizabeth/the Elizabethan age. That, I think, is definitely fanfic, and this test would classify it as such. It would also capture most if not all of the contemporary-person RPF that I occasionally see out of the corners of my eye. As someone who doesn't follow any celebrity culture at all, I can attest that if you don't know these people -- well, I can't say that the stories never work. But I haven't seen one that does, and that includes the kinds of things one's friends recommend in phrases like, "Even if you don't know who these guys are, you should read this, it's that good, I promise you don't need canon!"

If I read over your poll with this kind of test in mind there are still plenty of cases where I can't give you an abstract, always-true kind of answer. But that doesn't mean that there'd be a problem making a call on an actual story. This would just be one of those instances where determinations would have to be made on a case-by-case basis, and where there would be the occasional situation where a reasonable person could make the call either way.

_____________________
*Of course, there are and will always be stories that are fanfic and that will also stand on their own -- that is, that a reader may be able to enjoy without knowing the canon. But the test would be more, could a reader get what's there in the story without canon.
fangirlism: (Default)

[personal profile] fangirlism 2010-04-12 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!

and

A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!
I had to reread both of these a few times before I determined which one was fanfic, lol. Because the "original character meets/hooks up with X celeb" is pretty prevalent in RPF fandom, but I also had my characters interact with some celebs in my NaNoWriMo novel, but their appearance wasn't a major part of the story.
tsukinofaerii: Can't Think Without Coffee (Coffee)

[personal profile] tsukinofaerii 2010-04-12 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't read the replies yet (so I may be repeating what others have said), but IMO, fanfic is in how you approach the work. If the author can look at a piece and say "it's from this fandom right here", then it's fanfic, and I don't care how tenuous the link is. History fandom? Check. Anthro fandom? Check. Sailormoon-in-RL-with-Anthro-Characters-and-a-Hitler-Cameo? Check-a-roony. The important part, for me, is the self-identification as "fanfic", because in saying that you (the creator) are a fan of X, and were inspired by your love of it do create "this". Which means that, yeah, some "historical RPF" is fanfic, and some isn't.

(This doesn't mean that taking an original story and throwing in, for example, the Doctor, makes it fanfic. That's just painting the serial numbers on.)

They keys are in "transformative" and "fan". Anything that takes someone else's canon that you love and transforms it counts. But if its your own canon, you may love it, and you may be able to cite resources (again historical RPF, because it's an easy target sorry!), but that doesn't make it a transformative fan-work unless you identify as a history fan, you know? And I suppose you could technically identify as a fan of your own work, but you could expect people to make pointed comments about narcissism.

And then there's the case where it's 100% Original and... I don't even see why that is a question? Original content is original content. It's not transformative. It's not a fanwork. Why is it even up for question, when it's outside the OTW's mission? If they want to extend their mission to original works, okay, I can't argue. But I wouldn't support it anymore, because original works don't have the same difficulty that fanworks/transformative works do.

I've a few "original" pieces. "Filed the serial numbers off" sort of thing. I wouldn't dream of posting them at a fan-archive, because I wrote them as original works. Okay, I failed, because otherwise there wouldn't be serial numbers to file off, but my intent was original. But if I'd written same thing with intent to be fannish (and just left the serial numbers on), I'd post it.

IDK... Am I making sense, or should I seek coffee and try thinking again later?

(wanders off for said coffee, and then to read comments)
athena_cat: "Interplanetary Chocolate Smuggler" (YW - Carmela)

[personal profile] athena_cat 2010-04-13 01:02 am (UTC)(link)
A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)

Is it bad that I knew exactly what novel that was referring to?
clocketpatch: A small, innocent-looking red alarm clock, stuck forever at 10 to 7. (Default)

[personal profile] clocketpatch 2010-04-19 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
I got here via lots of link clicking, and I'm a bit fascinated by this discussion and frankly boggled by the poll -

To me, historical RPF about dead people falls firmly under the blanket of historical fiction... but then, modern RPF must also be original and argh! This is strange.

I was amused at the Doctor cameos, because he can, and because he totally does (Anyone seen the cameo in Her Fearful Symmetry by Time Traveller's Wife author? It's hilarious... or way he pops up in old Marvel comics), but even with that, I'm amazed at how firmly some of these categories are held - even when they blatantly contradict the results from other questions within the same poll. I used to be one of those crazy Original Fic only!! Fanfic is BAAadd!! people without really understanding what I was ranting about, but the further I get into fandom, and the more I look, really look, at some of the published stuff on my shelf...

It's uncategorizable. Stories is stories is stories. Also, would it be okay to link to this from my journal? Because it's kind of awesome.
cleverthylacine: a cute little thylacine (Default)

[personal profile] cleverthylacine 2010-04-19 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel strikes me as not a good thing, if the friend has any interest in publishing it, and something that archives probably should not accept. (I have had people ask to write fic based on some of my unpublished, original stuff, and my response is always that I will not mind if that happens once it is out in the wild, but I want the first published stories, online or professionally, about my actual original characters, that are seen by the public, to be my own.)

I am also unable to see that and NOT think of a particularly vile ex-friend, one of the many reasons she is an ex-friend being that I am a slower writer than she is and I can unfortunately not count the times when I came up with a grand fic idea in conversation with her only to see her write it and put it up the next day as her own.
Edited 2010-04-19 17:41 (UTC)
cleverthylacine: Shopped 'painting' of Admiral Edward Pellew (Edward Pellew)

[personal profile] cleverthylacine 2010-04-19 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that a lot of what makes something "fanfic" is the fact that it's not legal to publish professionally for money.

That's what the real difference between writing a novel about Edward Pellew (real historical person) and Robert Lindsay (actor who played him in adaptation of historical novel in which Pellew appeared) is, with regard to one being original fiction, and one being fanfiction. (Of course if Horatio Hornblower is in your Pellew story, it's also fanfic, but that's not the same thing as writing a historical novel about Pellew in which the only characters whose names do not appear in historical records are ones that you made up yourself.)
kaigou: Sorry to barge in, but we have a slight apocalypse. (3 slight apocalypse)

[personal profile] kaigou 2010-06-01 01:21 am (UTC)(link)
The problem for me is that one-half of any "is it fanfic" definition is "was it done within a fan community"? So in almost every instance, if it's written per original work -- done as a whole, alone, off in a corner of your own room -- it's original. Done as part of a community, where you're talking it over beforehand with friends, getting ideas from other peoples' work, incorporating and adjusting your interpretation in light of other fans/friends interpretations, posting as-you-go and/or as-you-finish with an eye towards reviews and eagerly awaiting your fandom's response...

Since none of the questions clarify whether those situations also existed concurrently with the actual writing, I'd have to say my answer is, "not enough information to determine at this time."

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