melannen | A post that is not epic! For once!

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A post that is not epic! For once!

con_txt has posted their annual pre-con "what fandoms are you in?" poll, and I wish to share with you what I put in the "If you clicked 'other', elaborate here" box, because it amuses me as summary of my fannishness at this exact moment. (It's true! But it still amuses me.)

Usually, "other" means "a variety of small book fandoms, indy comics, and/or obsolete video games. But mostly small book fandoms".

In the RPS category, it specifically means "British comedians that are on panel shows a lot". (But also Discovery Channel, NPR, and various other media personalities and presenters that aren't exactly either actors, pundits, or reality-show people, and have shows and fandoms that blur the border between real and fictional; I don't even know how to describe the genre, but I know it when I see it. Mythbusters. A Prairie Home Companion. OMG SOMEBODY HAS ACTUALLY WRITTEN 3-2-1 CONTACT FIC. Anything John Hodgman-related. Top Gear. You know. That.)

Also, Muppets/Sesame Street is an RPS fandom, because muppets are real people. :P

And by "other actors" - Doctor Who/Torchwood RPS. even if nobody has written me any Pertwee/Delgado yet, sadface.

And the "Sports figures" tickymark means "90% of the time I could care less about pro sports but figure skating hits my kinks every time, why god why."

In other random fandom news,

brownbetty made a post about crossovers involving professional figure-outers and professional secret-keepers, and how she likes them best when the figure-outers never quite figure it out, and it never works when they find out the secret too easily.

I agree halfway: if the secret is discovered too easily, or the people trying to figure out the secret don't have to do the work, it ruins the crossover. But my problem with many of the example crossovers people listed is that the figure-outers ought to *know the secret already*, because the figure-outers in our fandoms are usually pretty well connected and very good at what they do. And if they don't know, it's probably because the secret-keepers have been actively interfering with them well before your crossover started. These are people whose avocations mesh: they shouldn't always be walking into the crossover with a clean slate.

Example: House/Stargate crossovers. I can't read most House/Stargate crossovers, because if you accept Stargate canon, House almost certainly *already knows* about the Stargate project, at least its existence. He's universally acknowledged as one of the world's best diagnosticians, a specialist in epidemiology and infectious disease, and a certified genius. He's regularly called (and sometimes conscripted) to solve medical problems for government agencies, including sometimes security-sensitive ones. If he wasn't on Dr. Frasier's go-to list for consults from about S1 of SG1, then something is wrong with your universe.

Plus, at least once Stargate Command actually invoked their "evacuate your list of selected scientific geniuses to the Alpha Site" protocol, so chances are House has not only been pulled into consults for Cheyenne Mountain, he's actually *been off-planet*.

...in fact, that applies to any Stargate crossover with a fandom where one of your main characters is a certified genius or the best in their field. (Bones and Numb3rs, I'm looking at you.)

The inverse applies, too. For example: any Highlander crossover in which any FBI agents are involved. In Highlander canon, there are Immortals (and Watchers) who have infiltrated the FBI (and, by implication, other law enforcement) specifically to prevent the secret from getting out. So your Mulder And Scully Investigate Beheadings story had better explain why Matthew McCormick isn't getting involved.

There is no universe in which I believe that Torchwood/UNIT and the Ministry of Magic are mutually ignorant of each other; if nothing else, the poor PM has probably called the Minister of Magic in panic over something that was Torchwood's fault, and vice versa (Okay, a story where every time that happens, they wipe each others' memories and the PM is the *only* one who knows would be amusing. Admittedly. But even then the PM should know about both.) And anyone who's top of their craft in forgery, fraud, or criminal capers probably knows Dr. Brennan's family, by reputation if nothing else (H'lo Leverage! White Collar! SPN!) (A story where Burke and Booth are put on the same case and it turns out Neal spent a summer 'prenticed with Tempe's parents and was her first crush: awesome, or *deeply* awesome?)

There are some universes in which the noncomprehension does work. NCIS/Stargate, fr'ex: it's believable both that Stargate Command is too disorganized to quash the investigation immediately, and that NCIS would be obedient enough to actually stay quashed. Or any excuse that requires Torchwood to be incompetent is fine with me. It's when, by in-universe logic of one or both universes, they *should* already know, and they *don't*, that I lose faith.

This isn't to say I don't like that kind of story; "ships passing in the night" or someone who almost-but-not-quite solves it are a ton of fun. But these canons (even the technically non-SF ones) are full of over-the-topness and coincidences and people who are way too good at too many things: run with it. (One or more) of your figure-outers already knows the secret, and has to hide both that they know and how they know: this makes your story even *better*.

...all of the above of course assumes that you're writing a crossover where the two canons take place in the same universe. When you get people moving between universes, other issues crop up. (Although related ones, really. Most shows, SF or not, have had an AU episode of some kind by the fourth or fifth season: your characters really shouldn't be going in to that blind, either.)

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When you get people moving between universes, other issues crop up.

It might be the champagne, but I feel like there's a bumper sticker in there somewhere.

There was wine involved when I wrote this, so we're probably on the same page.

*wandering in via the Network page*

Interesting post. I always figured that Kate, at least, would know *something* about the SGC, even if no one else from NCIS does. The possibility of alien baddies would be relevant information when you're on the President's secret service detail.

That is a brilliant thought. Going by that logic it's even possible Kate has been to the SGC and everything.

I'm now picturing a bunch of Secret Service people sitting in a room learning how to tell if the President or those close to him have been taken over by the Gould. And other things to do during a Foothold situation.

Oooh, that would be a great story I'd love to see!

All I know about NCIS I learned from reading crossover fic, but that makes sense to me. Surely someone it the President's detail would at least be cleared high enough for anything they would inevitably overhear.

(Really, someone like that probably knows about *all* the secret agencies and conspiracies that work through or with the US Government, from every fandom.)

Okay, a story where every time that happens, they wipe each others' memories and the PM is the *only* one who knows would be amusing.

I would read that.

I prefer my secret conspiracies to actually work together rather than against each other, but then I always preferred the ones where Awesome People Team Up! (You know, mashing up Indiana Jones and The Mummy or having House's old buddy Buckaroo Bonzai show up or something.)

Really, They Team Up! is pretty much always pure gold. (The episode where it turns out that Bob from Sesame Street is Indiana Jones' brother? Sheer brilliance in muppet form.)

The ones where they attempt to team up but their ingrained mutual secrecy keeps causing hilarious mishaps are fun too, though. Also when they're competent and cooperative you need a plot for them work together on, but when they're working at cross-purposes you don't really need any other plot: that helps, too.

I really like this. I love "the SGC realistically leaks into the rest of the world" fic, because it frustrates me when both fanfic and canon keep the Stargate program as this tiny hermetically-sealed world all by itself, when it is 1997 and we are going to other planets OMG. How I pine for a story in which the SGC goes public, the world does not end, and it is all political and interesting.

There's a reason that, in places, the Stargate Project is considered the worst-kept secret in the universe, and that's because if you add up the people who have a canonical reason for knowing (at least rumors) about it, you have close to the total population of the Earth. :D So, yeah, I generally find it hard to believe when crossovers work on the assumption that nobody's ever even *heard* of it. (And somebody along the lines of Mulder or Hodgins who actually pays attention and makes connections? Probably knows almost as much as Landry does.)

I'm waiting for the story where somebody breaks the SGC's cover in the media, and the world's reaction is "Okay, so where's the part that's actually news?"

(It's almost as silly as writing something set in New Who universe where people don't know about aliens and alien contact. Not quite, but almost.)

I'm waiting for the story where somebody breaks the SGC's cover in the media, and the world's reaction is "Okay, so where's the part that's actually news?"

I want a story about the people who try to cash in on all their coupons for a square mile on the moon from 1950s cereal boxes. And the time everybody sued everybody else for militarizing space. And the roaring trade in Real Genuine Alien Artifacts which used to be souvenirs of Egypt, made in China.

It occurs to me that I've been obsessing on this kind of crossover for a while.

I want White Collar/Batman. Want Peter & Neal to be sent to Gotham on the trail of some international art thief, and wind up staying at the Wayne mansion.

Want X-Files/Harry Potter. Because while the FBI may know about the existence of wizards, I'm pretty sure nobody's told Mulder.

Now I want to make a big chart with Secret Keepers in column A and Figure Outers in Column B, and convince someone there needs to be a ficfest about it.

You should! That would be an amazing ficfest. (Really, there aren't enough crossover fic fests in general.)

(I have written X-Files/Harry Potter crossover, actually. Because Scully's brothers were too much temptation. But somebody needs to take the idea and do a less cracked version.)

Also, Batman/any (other) law enforcement fandom is pretty much instant awesome. (I can't write them, because I feel like I'd need to have read Gotham Central which I haven't managed yet, but not everybody is as obsessive about peripheral Batman canon as I am.)

Sometimes I think X-Files/Highlander crossovers are the reason people hate crossovers. They can be done well, but almost always aren't. At least that was my experience back when I still attempted to read them.

The weird thing about House for me is that you can have him in the know on almost anything and I'll just go with it because it's House. I've never actually thought about the fact that he's probably on the To Save list. Now I'm wondering if Reid (Criminal Minds) would also be on the list. Genius in multiple subjects and has more stored in his head about behavioural science then they could possibly take with them. This is an interesting thought for Stargate crossovers. Thank you.

(One or more) of your figure-outers already knows the secret, and has to hide both that they know and how they know: this makes your story even *better*.

I would go further and say make it someone you wouldn't expect. At this point if I'm reading a NCIS/Supernatural crossover I'm pretty much expecting Gibbs to already know about the Supernatural. It's boring by now. Give me a story where McGee actually grew up in a Hunter family or Kate's not just a former Catholic schoolgirl.

I can think of two XF/HL crossovers that are universially considered really very good, China by Torch and Rapture by Wombat. But in China they're not actually investigating Immortals, and in Rapture pretty much everybody *except* Mulder and Scully already know what's going on. ...there are a few other okay ones in which Skinner's Immortal, but nearly all of them that I found are Mulder/Skinner slash where Mulder turns out Immortal and Scully isn't, and I happen to be of the "Scully will never die" party, so I wasn't terribly fond. (Because I'm sure you wanted to know all that :D )

I think a lot of Stargate fans try to ignore the existence of the To Save list (and it really is ... not a shining moment in Stargate's continuity files) but with any kind of story about outsiders & the secret coming out, it really *ought* to be addressed that all of these luminaries know, not to mention all the controversy potential about who gets on the list and who doesn't. Plus, crossoveryness! (Someone really ought to write the story about what happens when all the crossovered geniuses are stuck at the Alpha Site together, too.)

Oh, and people who were raised in Hunter families, yes! I have this private backstory where the McKays were hunters (it makes sense in my head, okay) but really any character who doesn't talk about, or is cut off from his/her family backstory can be made a hunter like *snap*... (Ianto Jones! Seeley Booth - his first name must have come from *somewhere*!)

I do have to be a bit more careful there, though. If I can back it up with actual canon, I feel like I can be a bit more free with the connections - it's easy to go too far and get accusations of, you know, the equivalent of making everybody Harry Potter's long-lost sister.

I'm in the "Scully is the most important person in Mulder's life (however you choose to interpret that)" camp myself, so I suspect that if I were still reading X-Files fic I'd have similar issues. XD

The To Save list may not be the nicest thing in existence, but it makes a lot of sense, both in-world and real-world, politically as it's something that it would just be odd not to have. And it does provide all sorts of interesting possibilities. I'm not a big Numbers fan but I suspect Charlie would have issues with Don not being on the list. And the rest of their friends and family.

(Someone really ought to write the story about what happens when all the crossovered geniuses are stuck at the Alpha Site together, too.)

I'm not familiar enough with nearly enough canons to even think about attempting this, but boy would that be fun to read. Plus the possibility that some of these geniuses weren't informed about anything until some military personal picked them up.

I read an interesting Criminal Minds/SPN snippet that had JJ from a Hunter family. There really are a ton of characters that it would work with as all we need is absent family or mysterious family. The McKay's as Canadian Hunters is a fun idea. I have my own private backstory about how they were Watchers and that's why Rodney and Jeannie turned out the way they did.

it's easy to go too far and get accusations of, you know, the equivalent of making everybody Harry Potter's long-lost sister.

This reminds of a challenge that ran around the end of S1 of Heroes that was basically to write a character in the fandom of your choice as a member of the Petrelli family. There were some pretty hilarious results.

I read an interesting Criminal Minds/SPN snippet that had JJ from a Hunter family.

Ooh, link please? I'd love to read this!

I don't even know. I didn't save it. I know I found it off of

crossovernews but I couldn't tell you how long ago that was.

Well, I think at least one of the Mulder/Skinner immortality fics was "we're going to live forever and she won't, so I'll be waiting for you in the next lifetime" (which is its own sort of creepy for other reasons too), but there were what - three separate episodes, plus a bunch of smaller hints that Scully will not, in fact, ever die. So if anybody in that duo is immortal, it's not Mulder.

I suspect that most of the fandom characters on that list would have issues about leaving people behind - really, who wouldn't? And the ones who *didn't* hesitate would have their own issues when they got back home... One does wonder just how much preliminary briefing and training they get when they first get on the list. (There's also, of course, the political and privilege issues that would inevitably be there around who ended up on the list disproportionately.)

The PM isn't supposed to know about Torchwood; that's canon from "The Christmas Invasion."

Huh; serves me right for not re-watching that. I was going by the fact that at least the Home Office seemed to know by the time of Children of Earth, but I am admittedly shaky on my Torchwood details.

Well, in "The Christmas Invasion" Jones of course does know about Torchwood, and Torchwood S1 has a reference to Jack coordinating something with the PM. So it's a fact honored more in the breech (or perhaps even forgotten completely by the writers), which fits nicely under the "Torchwood's incompetence as the least secret secret organization ever makes anything possible" category.

But Torchwood's relationship to the parliamentary government of the United Kingdom is something which changes signifigance fairly deeply from season to season, so.

"British comedians that are on panel shows a lot".

Which ones? I know a few people (sadly lj-only) who are into various comics as well :D

Well, I started with QI and have since moved on to HIGNFY and the occasional Never Mind the Buzzcocks and ISIHAC (plus some of the non-panel documentary shows that the same people are ending up on, like "who do you think you are" and "three men in a boat".) So, basically anyone who has been on those shows more than three times, I have probably gone looking for fic. :D Oh, and I used to listen to "My Word" and "My Music" every week, way back when it was still being syndicated on American NPR, but sadly I don't think any Norden/Muir fic actually exists. :D

(The difficulty with me really getting active in British Comics RPF is that a large proportion of standup and sketch comedy, even British sketch comedy*, hits my embarrassment squick, so the ones who are best known for sketch shows and standup - even, like, Stephen Fry and David Mitchell, both of whom I'm going squishy for atm - I'm always going to be missing half the context.)

Also, Zaltzmann/Oliver on the Bugle counts as a panel show for our purposes. (They do always have a celebrity guest locked in the soundproof safe, after all!)

*for some reason British or Canadian comedy is at least 90% less likely to hit my embarrassment squick than American or Australian.

I was going to write an epic answer in reply, then I ran out of spoons, so just have this Charlie Brooker and David Mitchell Pokemon AU instead.

POKEMON AU IS ALWAYS ACCEPTABLE! yay.

...is the Brooker/Mitchell phenomenon based entirely on the power of their adorable meant-to-be-ness on the Big Fat Quiz Show last year, or should I be youtubing Brooker's panel show or Would I Lie To You or something? (My British TV knowledge is based entirely on Youtube and fanfic, because BBCAmerica shows nothing but Gordon Ramsay 24 hours a day.)

Mostly from The Big Fat Quiz Show, yes! I would recommend watching Newswipe as well, it's kind of like a TDS and Olbermann combination but British and low budget.

Personally I don't care much for the Brooker/Mitchell; I'd rather read American Fake News/Punditry crossovers, but no one has written them yet and I have no spoons for writing anything myself these days. So I'll wait like so: :)

Edited 2010-03-24 04:53 (UTC)

I disagree with the part of that secret that says they weren't even that slashy! (I did watch that one.) Also, the Olbermann comparison has cursed me to watching Newswipe now, curse you.

There need to be more British comedy/Daily Show crossovers! Really the closest I've found are (far-too-few) with Jon Oliver and Andy Saltzman, which doesn't actually count. The Daily Show is the closest American television seems to come to the BBC shows I've been watching, and that includes American attempts to "remake" British shows. But I can't make it work when I've tried. :/

(However? Charlie Brooker and Keith Olbermann may in fact be the key.)

Just as planned >:)

Hello! Don't mind me; I'm just setting down this heavy episode of Would I Lie To You? here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRvvXoZ_ME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfRe9oXYkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNA4jazidPQ

In which Brooker and Mitchell shout at each other a lot in what is clearly an entirely meant-to-be way.

I might be able to point you towards the episode of You Have Been Watching on which Mitchell guested as well, but I feel I've already been a bit presumptuous for a random stranger parachuting into your journal (sorry). If you're interested, let me know.

(I, er, didn't get here by Googling my own name, incidentally. I was searching for "charlie brooker and david mitchell". That may not be much better.)

I always welcome people parachuting into my journal from nowhere, particularly if they want to talk about the small fandom I am currently obsessing over! Even if I feel terribly guilty because I have been reading their fic and loving it for the past weeks straight but not leaving any feedback! (Hi i love your fic all of it and the top gear ones too moar pokemon crossovers please? :D!! )

I have independently ... er, moved beyond finding the shows they've appeared on together to the point where I am doing things like sitting up until three in the morning listening to The Unbelievable Truth. And trying to figure out if anybody's written David Mitchell/Clive Anderson pizza delivery porn from that one episode of The Bubble, and if so, where they would have posted it. :D

(I have seen the You Have Been Watching episode. in fact I have recced it to someone else already in my latest post of David Mitchell and Charlie Brooker Love.)

Awww, thank you very much! I'm glad you've enjoyed my fic.

Hooray, The Unbelievable Truth! I don't know whether you're aware, but two of the episodes in the upcoming series are going to feature Charlie Brooker. I was lucky enough to be at the recording, and the Brooker-Mitchell dynamic was absolutely wonderful.

Sadly, I have come across no Mitchell/Anderson pizza-delivery fic. (That was a great moment on The Bubble. I love it when the guests flirt with Mitchell.)

And I don't know anyone involved but Brooker and Mitchell, but I very much enjoy your Brooker-and-Olbermann fic concept regardless.

Rachel and David just get giggly, and then extremely blitzed on silly cocktails, and end up falling asleep cuddled in a completely nonsexual way on Charlie's sitting room floor, whereupon they awake in confusion and awkwardness to find that the other two have covered them with a blanket, drawn mustaches on them in permanent marker and then left to get breakfast.

THIS IS SO ADORABLE. I AM NOT REMOTELY FAMILIAR WITH MADDOW, BUT THIS IS ADORABLE.

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A post that is not epic! For once!

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