on swindles and fandoms
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cesperanza's post about Multi-Level Marketing and monetizing fandom is still going around, and I keep wanting to put mostly-side-issue long comments on other people's posts, so here they are here instead.
I commented on the original post about how I felt like the correct comparison was not MLMs to fandom patreons (etc), but pyramid schemes to predatory publishers. The people who tell you how your novel will be a best-seller now that they've discovered your genius, and all you have to do is give them thousands of dollars for them to ship you thousands of copies of a badly-edited, badly-bound book for you to sell to your friends and family, they're the ones coercing writers to destroy their own social networks for other people's profit.
And in a lot of ways, the fandom monetizing methods actually inoculate against this - a member of a fan community who know about things like patreon and crowdfunding and kindle originals and legit self-publishing, who is friendly with other pro authors, who knows the histories of other people who've made the transitions and can chat with other people in the process and has things like beta-readers and knows that there's more to getting readers than just writing a thing - that person is way less likely to fall victim to a predatory publisher.
There's a lot of people misunderstanding MLMs in this discussion, too. Multi-Level Marketing has come to be used as a euphemism/synonym for pyramid scheme because calling something a pyramid scheme in the press is technically defamatory in the US unless you can prove it is one by the legal definition. But not all MLMs are pyramid schemes, only most of them (and nearly all of the trendy flash-in-the-pan ones).
An MLM is an organization where people recruit new people into the organization, and they get a percentage of their recruits' revenues in exchange.
In a classic pyramid scheme, this is literally all that happens. Person A says, "If you join and give me a $5 membership fee, you can recruit new people, and they'll give you their $5, and everyone they recruit will give you a percent of their $5, and before you know it you'll have hundreds coming in every day from new recruits far down the line, just like I do!" In that kind of scheme, as soon as new membership fees stop flowing in, the entire thing collapses.
Pyramid schemes are illegal in the US, but it's not the MLM structure that illegal, it's the fact that the main revenue source is the new member fees, rather than any actual value or profit.
There are non-pyramid scheme, reasonably legit MLMs, and the difference is: in a non-pyramid-scheme MLM, there is actually value being provided in exchange for the money that flows up, preferably at all levels. Even if no new sellers were recruited, and people just sold product, everybody would still be making money, and the organization would survive.
Lately, the most obvious way to tell the difference is that the more legit ones like Avon don't require new sellers to go into debt to start up - you sell from a catalog, or you don't have to pay for product unless it's sold, and you don't have to pay large fees for training or membership just to start selling - the training/set-up is free or a nominal cost for materials and travel. Also, in a sustainable MLM, the upper-level sellers are doing pretty intense mentoring/training/monitoring/support of the people under them, and are actually earning a lot of the money that flows up, because they want the people below them to succeed - it's a different structure but the same effect as money flowing up to management in a more standard structure. And nobody makes any money at all if the product doesn't sell, so usually there's incentive for the product to be something people want at a reasonable markup, and sellers can actually sell it.
There's still more risk to sellers and less chance of making a living wage, and often a fair amount of pressure tactics, but it's a reasonably workable business model long-term, and if people aren't making money, they can just quit with no big loss. (Really, it's just a more formalized version of how small home businesses sell by word-of-mouth in expanding social circles.) There was a recent Buzzfeed article about what Avon is up to lately that gives a pretty good view of how a non-scam MLM functions.
In a pyramid scheme, new sellers have to put up money up front, often for expensive training or something and are also often required to buy a very large amount of product on spec, which they can't return if they don't sell it. (This is very similar to the process of being "published" by a predatory publisher, and not essential to the MLM aspect.) This puts sellers under a huge amount of pressure just to make back their initial investment (and the vast majority of them don't), and generally forces people on higher levels to focus more on recruiting new sellers than mentoring existing ones, because nobody makes money on selling no matter how much mentoring is going on, because that's not the point of the thing, and since that's not the point, the product is probably shit and nobody can sell it anyway. (Often it's something like dietary supplements that's a swindle no matter how it's sold.) It's also why it's uniquely damaging to social relationships: you're not just selling to your friends, you're being coerced into actively swindling your friends, and usually before you've been in the thing for very long, you realize that, at some level, but you've invested so much you can't get out. It's poison all around.
MLMs are legal; pyramid schemes aren't. So the pyramid schemes have to have just enough of a 'product' to pretend they're a real MLM long enough to take the money and run, which makes them harder to talk people out of. And the problem isn't so much the MLM structure as that the whole thing's a swindle.
And we certainly have swindles in monetized fandom! Any method of making money can be turned into a swindle, by someone who wants to swindle people. We can probably all name several exciting chapters in the history of online fandom when fan swindlers have succeeded, for a little while at least.
And any method of making money can feel like a swindle if the people involved in it are just really bad at it (which also applies to a lot of v. small publishers who look predatory through sheer incompetence, but aren't actually making any money for themselves either.) We can all name situations like that too, probably.
And any profit-prioritizing corporation under late-stage capitalism is, at some level, built on a swindle, because our entire global economic system is currently built on a series of stacked swindles. So there's some stuff that does make me side-eye things like Patreon and Kofi, and what they try to promise people, even as fandom uses them more and more, but that's really pretty ancillary to the question of MLMs. And even at their worst, they don't require the initial outlay of capital to chain you to the swindle, or pressure you to pressure your friends to put themselves into the same level of debt as you.
So I'm still way more worried about predatory publishers going 'ooh, girls are selling fanfic now! Our fandom market's not limited to boys with no social support and WoW-with-the-numbers-filed-off epics!' or about homegrown swindles and for-pay fanfic sites than I am about people using crowdfunding or commissions to fill out that last couple of hundred dollars of rent. The real, ongoing problem with monetizing that destroys relationships is large corporations recruiting people to swindle other people for them, not individual fans looking for compensation for labor.
(The question of compensation for creative labor in general is an entirely different one.) (as is the question that's silently threaded through this whole discussions about helping needy people via pure charity vs. under a smokescreen of nominal 'earned payment', and whether that choice should be up to the helper or the helped.)(as is the question of to what extent patreon and company are themselves exploiting the fans who use them.)
(one of my cousins over christmas seemed to think I was anticapitalist or something, dunno what gave him that impression.)
cesperanza's post about Multi-Level Marketing and monetizing fandom is still going around, and I keep wanting to put mostly-side-issue long comments on other people's posts, so here they are here instead.I commented on the original post about how I felt like the correct comparison was not MLMs to fandom patreons (etc), but pyramid schemes to predatory publishers. The people who tell you how your novel will be a best-seller now that they've discovered your genius, and all you have to do is give them thousands of dollars for them to ship you thousands of copies of a badly-edited, badly-bound book for you to sell to your friends and family, they're the ones coercing writers to destroy their own social networks for other people's profit.
And in a lot of ways, the fandom monetizing methods actually inoculate against this - a member of a fan community who know about things like patreon and crowdfunding and kindle originals and legit self-publishing, who is friendly with other pro authors, who knows the histories of other people who've made the transitions and can chat with other people in the process and has things like beta-readers and knows that there's more to getting readers than just writing a thing - that person is way less likely to fall victim to a predatory publisher.
There's a lot of people misunderstanding MLMs in this discussion, too. Multi-Level Marketing has come to be used as a euphemism/synonym for pyramid scheme because calling something a pyramid scheme in the press is technically defamatory in the US unless you can prove it is one by the legal definition. But not all MLMs are pyramid schemes, only most of them (and nearly all of the trendy flash-in-the-pan ones).
An MLM is an organization where people recruit new people into the organization, and they get a percentage of their recruits' revenues in exchange.
In a classic pyramid scheme, this is literally all that happens. Person A says, "If you join and give me a $5 membership fee, you can recruit new people, and they'll give you their $5, and everyone they recruit will give you a percent of their $5, and before you know it you'll have hundreds coming in every day from new recruits far down the line, just like I do!" In that kind of scheme, as soon as new membership fees stop flowing in, the entire thing collapses.
Pyramid schemes are illegal in the US, but it's not the MLM structure that illegal, it's the fact that the main revenue source is the new member fees, rather than any actual value or profit.
There are non-pyramid scheme, reasonably legit MLMs, and the difference is: in a non-pyramid-scheme MLM, there is actually value being provided in exchange for the money that flows up, preferably at all levels. Even if no new sellers were recruited, and people just sold product, everybody would still be making money, and the organization would survive.
Lately, the most obvious way to tell the difference is that the more legit ones like Avon don't require new sellers to go into debt to start up - you sell from a catalog, or you don't have to pay for product unless it's sold, and you don't have to pay large fees for training or membership just to start selling - the training/set-up is free or a nominal cost for materials and travel. Also, in a sustainable MLM, the upper-level sellers are doing pretty intense mentoring/training/monitoring/support of the people under them, and are actually earning a lot of the money that flows up, because they want the people below them to succeed - it's a different structure but the same effect as money flowing up to management in a more standard structure. And nobody makes any money at all if the product doesn't sell, so usually there's incentive for the product to be something people want at a reasonable markup, and sellers can actually sell it.
There's still more risk to sellers and less chance of making a living wage, and often a fair amount of pressure tactics, but it's a reasonably workable business model long-term, and if people aren't making money, they can just quit with no big loss. (Really, it's just a more formalized version of how small home businesses sell by word-of-mouth in expanding social circles.) There was a recent Buzzfeed article about what Avon is up to lately that gives a pretty good view of how a non-scam MLM functions.
In a pyramid scheme, new sellers have to put up money up front, often for expensive training or something and are also often required to buy a very large amount of product on spec, which they can't return if they don't sell it. (This is very similar to the process of being "published" by a predatory publisher, and not essential to the MLM aspect.) This puts sellers under a huge amount of pressure just to make back their initial investment (and the vast majority of them don't), and generally forces people on higher levels to focus more on recruiting new sellers than mentoring existing ones, because nobody makes money on selling no matter how much mentoring is going on, because that's not the point of the thing, and since that's not the point, the product is probably shit and nobody can sell it anyway. (Often it's something like dietary supplements that's a swindle no matter how it's sold.) It's also why it's uniquely damaging to social relationships: you're not just selling to your friends, you're being coerced into actively swindling your friends, and usually before you've been in the thing for very long, you realize that, at some level, but you've invested so much you can't get out. It's poison all around.
MLMs are legal; pyramid schemes aren't. So the pyramid schemes have to have just enough of a 'product' to pretend they're a real MLM long enough to take the money and run, which makes them harder to talk people out of. And the problem isn't so much the MLM structure as that the whole thing's a swindle.
And we certainly have swindles in monetized fandom! Any method of making money can be turned into a swindle, by someone who wants to swindle people. We can probably all name several exciting chapters in the history of online fandom when fan swindlers have succeeded, for a little while at least.
And any method of making money can feel like a swindle if the people involved in it are just really bad at it (which also applies to a lot of v. small publishers who look predatory through sheer incompetence, but aren't actually making any money for themselves either.) We can all name situations like that too, probably.
And any profit-prioritizing corporation under late-stage capitalism is, at some level, built on a swindle, because our entire global economic system is currently built on a series of stacked swindles. So there's some stuff that does make me side-eye things like Patreon and Kofi, and what they try to promise people, even as fandom uses them more and more, but that's really pretty ancillary to the question of MLMs. And even at their worst, they don't require the initial outlay of capital to chain you to the swindle, or pressure you to pressure your friends to put themselves into the same level of debt as you.
So I'm still way more worried about predatory publishers going 'ooh, girls are selling fanfic now! Our fandom market's not limited to boys with no social support and WoW-with-the-numbers-filed-off epics!' or about homegrown swindles and for-pay fanfic sites than I am about people using crowdfunding or commissions to fill out that last couple of hundred dollars of rent. The real, ongoing problem with monetizing that destroys relationships is large corporations recruiting people to swindle other people for them, not individual fans looking for compensation for labor.
(The question of compensation for creative labor in general is an entirely different one.) (as is the question that's silently threaded through this whole discussions about helping needy people via pure charity vs. under a smokescreen of nominal 'earned payment', and whether that choice should be up to the helper or the helped.)(as is the question of to what extent patreon and company are themselves exploiting the fans who use them.)
(one of my cousins over christmas seemed to think I was anticapitalist or something, dunno what gave him that impression.)
no subject
Yeah, it's like that "money should flow towards the author" rule -- people shouldn't have to pay to get published, or reviewed, or to have inventory they can sell. The very latest iteration of this appears to be people who put videos up on UTU about how you, too! can be a gazillionaire reselling returned stuff from Amazon, with the result people wind up paying thousands of dollars for "training" and even more money for inventory they can't sell (and might not even know what it is before they buy IIRC). Or the "publishers" who tell you that you've won a prize, and all you need to do is pay $35 for the poetry anthology your poem appears in....that kind of thing.
And I remember my mother briefly selling Mary Kay in the eighties, and IIRC she either had samples she didn't have to pay for, or took around a catalogue or both. (No, Wiki just told me now you have to buy a $100 starter kit. Hunh. Maybe they changed or I'm remembering wrong. She certainly couldn't have afforded a starter kit at the time.)
no subject
That said, I've heard more mixed messages about Mary Kay than about Avon, but I think it's more that they push the high-pressure sales tactics and the recruitments of new sellers pretty hard; they certainly aren't down with the outright scams. (The outright scams never last more than a couple years after they hit the zeitgeist, because pyramid schemes are self-limiting.)
I thought about putting that one in, but "Money flows toward the author" is a little bit of an oversimplification, because ideally it also flows toward the publisher at least a little - paying the admin people isn't inherently scammy - but the author's own money should never flow away from the author, that's for sure. And neither should the salesperson's, or the employee's (as I've heard horror stories about at some startups.)
The "pay ridiculous amounts of money for useless training that will definitely make you rich" is a perennial one (that's basically The Music Man, and also the people who own the US's current Secretary of Education), but it's a good sign that any given thing is scammy.
no subject
Well, but an author is also a businessperson; that's the other part of the oversimplification. I think a lot of people (including a lot of aspiring authors) have this romantic fantasy of authors just sitting back and letting the money roll in, but that's not how it works - even authors in trad publishing still are businesspeople who need to bear all the costs associated with their business (software, computer/printer/fax hardware, office costs if they have an office, research costs, tax prep, sometimes things like hiring people for admin assistance and training/travel costs for things like Clarion and so forth). You can't get away from that. Clearly there is a whole branch of scammers dedicated to ripping off aspiring authors with things like "pay us and see your name in print!" but that's a whole other thing from paying legitimate costs for equipment and inventory for your business - same as being ripped off by a purveyor of shoddy resale materials is a different thing from someone buying makeup or clothing inventory at wholesale that they plan to resell at a markup.
no subject
(Although it is possible for a mid-list trad-pub fiction author these days to write with almost no cost outlay - those things you listed, other than maybe a cheap laptop, are all fairly optional for somebody at that level - which is what a lot of the genre author advice is still assuming is the goal. It's just that mid-list trad-pub authors are a rare bird anymore.)
no subject
The framing I like is that yes, money still flows toward the author–because once you are self-publishing, you take off your author hat and put on your publisher hat. You are now the publisher, and responsible for all the grim details of the process, including spending money.
no subject
In my case this also includes a third "fanfic writer" hat - writing for the sheer fun and delight of pouring out gen h/c onto my keyboard and sharing it with people, basically. It's a different sort of writing and a different social climate than my "day job" romance-novel writing, and I really like it that way and don't have any intention of changing the way I do things - though I also don't think other people are ruining anything by putting out tip jars; that's a personal decision. I'm currently in a financial place where I don't have to feel like I need to look for ways to monetize every income stream I possibly can, so I have the luxury of enjoying my hobbyist writing separate from my writing-for-money. I plan to keep it that way, but I also understand that not everyone can do that.