melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2018-12-13 09:50 pm
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Thoughts on canon het

A couple of weeks ago I did a fanac research survey advertised on Tumblr (one of [tumblr.com profile] cfiesler’s surveys; it’s closed now but they’ve put up a few results already), and one of the questions was how likely you are to ship canon het, and then if you said not likely, it asked why.

I said something like “because canon almost always screws up canon het,” which I acknowledge is not a super helpful answer, but it was also a very small text box.

So just for fun I sat down and listed out all the ways canon screws up canon het.

(FTR, I am using a very restricted definition of “ship” here that implies a certain level of active enthusiasm and fannish energy applied to the pairing; I don’t usually bother to anti-ship canon het, and there’s a few canon het ships I ship, or that I ship despite the fact that canon screws them up. But it’s usually going to be “despite canon” (see: Miles/Ekaterin) or “Specifically TO spite canon” (see: Bruce/Betty) than because canon. But we’ll get to that later!

First, here are many, many ways that canon screws up canon het:

(some of these are inspired by [personal profile] sholio's post on characters who are supposed to be in love but never think about each other, in which I agree on the principles and disagree on the ships, and also by a lot of different posts over the years by other people.)

  1. If a character is introduced specifically to be the Love Interest, it is very likely they will never rise to the level of Interesting In Their Own Right. This is especially likely to be a problem in shorter canons like movies, where there’s not a lot of time for development, or in cases where the love interest isn’t part of the main cast. But it can also happen when a long-standing character suddenly gets shoehorned into being The Love Interest and all their other storylines drop away. (I was going to say this is a gender problem and on the rare occasion when the male character is the Love Interest, it at least has the appeal of novelty, but actually my mom’s been watching Hallmark Originals lately, and nope, when the male Love Interest is common in the genre it’s just as boring.)

  2. There’s also a lot of “He was a boy. She was a girl. Can I make it any more obvious?” Yes. Yes you do need to do more work than that.

  3. If it’s a longer canon where the romance is between a main character and a not-main character, the romance is often not well-integrated into the story: often you get long stretches where it’s barely mentioned, which gives the impression that it’s not all that important to the main character, and then the occasional scene or plotline where it feels shoehorned in.

  4. Or you get the situation where the love interest character is taken out of the picture for convenience: sent to Norway, abducted by aliens, stuffed in a fridge. This again creates the impression that the love interest isn’t actually that important as a person as much as a device to check certain emotional boxes for the protagonist, and it’s boring, plus if you were invested in the pairing, it’s awful, and it’s just not worth it.

  5. There’s a large cohort of people who think the only interesting story about romance is How They Got Together. In fanfic this works, because we can write How They Got Together 20 million times and it just gets deeper and richer with repetition, but when you’re trying to do this in a series with continuity, you either end up writing excruciatingly endless will-they-won’t-they, or repeated breakups and get-back-togethers that mostly just present a case for why they shouldn’t, or a bunch of romance-of-the-weeks that aren’t worth getting invested in, or the situation where they get together and the romance does, in fact, stop being interesting, because the writers think the interesting part is over.

  6. When canon does try to do a centered, established relationship between two main characters, they often seem to think that the only character storyline those characters can have anymore is This Threatens the Relationship. We almost never see them have personal crises where the relationship is nothing but rock-solid support; we never see them have personal life developments that are just about them and they aren’t worrying about how their partner will react because they know their partner will support them; we don’t see plotlines where they think the relationship is fine, because it is, and then are happily surprised when it gets better. In short, the established relationship too often gets written as a weakness, when it should be a strength; written as unstable, when it should be supportive.

  7. For that reason or others, the relationships are often shown as terrible relationships that are bad for everyone involved even as the writers are trying to tell us they’re a romantic ideal. This does not work. I am perfectly willing to ship screwed-up pairs, I ship a lot of very screwed up non-canon pairs, but not if canon is trying to tell us that they’re healthy when they’re not.

  8. Too often centered, established canon het will automatically get put on what Poly Weekly calls the Relationship Escalator, no matter whether that makes sense with the characters’ history or personalities - you step on and automatically get carried one at a time up the steps of dating, I love yous, moving in together, romantic engagement scene, formal wedding, kids, and then if it goes on long enough, kids’ life milestones take over. Sometimes just to mix it up, they change the order of a couple of them! There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but it gets awfully predictable, and when a character has previously shown little to no interest in being railroaded into normativity before the endgame ship became canon, it can go OOC pretty quickly. Sometimes it’s well done and manages to stay mostly IC, especially if it’s over the course of many years, even then, but if I was in it for adults having adventures, not episodes about their kids choosing a college, I’m not interested once the show turns into that, even if it pulls it off in theory. Also, there are options other than the Relationship Escalator. I would like to see a show where the two leads start dating and then just… keep dating, because they’re happy where they are! The angst could be about the pressure to get on the relationship ladder, and them deciding over and over that they don’t want to! It could be great.

  9. Relatedly, the idea that the only real, successful relationship is the Endgame Ship, and that once one relationship is the Endgame Ship all others must have been lesser, and that there can’t be relationships that go for a few years and end and that’s great because you both grew from it, or that stalled out early, or stayed might-have-beens, or you got in a relationship that neither of you wanted or expected to be forever, or that make better exes or fuckbuddies than lovers, or whatever. Or that the canon relationship is only important because it *is* the Endgame Ship, so any hint that they might not be together forever means the whole thing is meaningless. It can be good now without being forever!

  10. I like characters who aren’t visibly straight. I like characters who don’t have any romantic relationships! I like intense platonic male & female relationships. If you bring in canon het for a character who didn’t have any before, or turn a platonic relationship romantic, you’re already fighting my resentment over the fact that you’re messing up something I liked.

  11. Let’s face it, there will be annoying gender role and heteronormativity stuff mixed up in canon het. Even if the canon is trying really hard to subvert it and point out that this couple really are equal partners and feminist and stuff, they will be having to lampshade that hard because the reverse is so much more common, and it makes me tired.

  12. She almost certainly deserves better than having to put up with him. Sorry. That’s just how it is, man. She does.

  13. Even if everything’s going well, even if so far they haven’t screwed up and everything’s exactly how I like it, if it’s an ongoing canon I have to either trust the creators a whole lot, or I’m constantly waiting for them to pull the rug out from under it for ~drama~, and I'm just too tense to enjoy it. Don’t have to worry about that with non-canon ships! Canon can't ruin it if canon isn't doing anything with it!

  14. If they do manage to avoid all the above - pull off canon het that’s a believable, interesting partnership between two people who appear to genuinely enjoy each other and have chemistry and are better selves around each other - then I’m probably not interested in the fanfic. ‘Cause the good canon ship has ruined me for wanting any other ships for them, but none of the fanfic is going to do the canon ship as well as canon does.


  15. (And most of these aren't unique to het: canon not-het often has some of the same problems. Not all of them, and canon not-het is still rare enough that the ones that are mostly annoying via ubiquity don’t really apply. But then with queer canon ships there’s the additional fun of waiting to see who’s going to tragically die first.)

    Which isn’t to say I never ship canon het. You can usually sell me on it in fanfic if you try, and I usually don’t actively anti-ship it or anything, I just don't get invested. And I haven’t been watching most of the recent shows that are supposed to be really good for canon het (like B99). It’s just that canon het is very rarely going to be the ship I get super invested in or go looking for. Often I read the fanfic until they become canon and then re-read the old fanfic from before they were canon.

    But here’s some canon het I am 100% there for, just for fun:

    Duncan MacLeod/Amanda (Highlander): They are great together, but they both have their own stuff going on separate from each other, and they’re never going to be each other’s One and Only, and that’s fine. (Amanda is pretty much my archetype for the “poly comet” partner - the person who swings into your orbit every few years, and it’s hot and heavy while they’re there, but you both know they’re going to swing out again, and then back again, and then out again, and you both like it that way. It’s a really great archetype for a TV show recurring guest star and I don’t know why there aren’t more that do that. It doesn’t even have to be explicitly nonmonogamous if they only swing in when the other person’s unattached so I don’t know why it doesn’t come up more, except that canon het is so often so bad at doing anything other than Relationship Escalator.)

    Lois/Clark (Superman): I’m not sure they even really count as canon het, because they don’t really live in a canon anymore? In any given version canon is at least as likely to screw it up as not (and I think my ur-version is in the old Fleischer cartoons, where IIRC they never technically get together) but they have transcended canon into myth at this point, and I ship them in that plane that transcends canon. So none of the “canon does it poorly” problems apply because I am super uninvested in any particular canon version.

    Beverley/Peter (Rivers of London): So this looked, in the first couple books, like it was going to hit all the points and be boring and terrible, but then he just sort of… skipped all the “getting together” parts and went right to the bit where they’re partners and they make each other better and happier? And it happened pretty much right alongside Beverly becoming more a part of the Folly’s work (in fact, that technically happened first; Bev didn’t make a try for Peter until Nightingale had already deputized her,) so we get to see their relationship functioning without having the conflicts all be internal to their relationship. And, I mean, she does technically deserve better probably, but she wants Peter, and she should get what she wants, and she’s not going to put up with him one second longer than he’s worth it, and he knows that and he’s okay with it, because he has things he might have to give her up for too. I’m still not completely sure it won’t go off the rails eventually, but right now it’s great, and the fact that it does skip over a lot of the milestones - and that Peter is a super unreliable narrator - means that there’s plenty to explore in fanfic, because canon doesn’t explore it enough to outshine the fanfic.

    Han/Leia (Star Wars sequel trilogy): This one’s odd, because I really wasn’t interested in them back in the day in Star Wars fandom? I mean I didn’t not ship them, they were fine together, but I certainly didn’t seek out Han/Leia stuff, and most of the EU that focused on them was just bad. But after TFA I kind of got really into it. I think because TFA makes it clear that they walked under the relationship ladder before they tried to climb it: that they love each other and will always love each other and that they try really hard to love each other well, but they were never going to be the sort of people who could hang onto a Happy Ever After for very long - and that makes it interesting, and it makes a lot more sense for who they are in the movies than the boring relationship ladder version that turned up in the old EU.
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[personal profile] staranise 2018-12-14 07:25 am (UTC)(link)
Not much to add, but I am jamming along to this. Hollywood TV writers especially are SO BAD at writing good relationships.

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[personal profile] elaiel 2018-12-14 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with almost all of this. I think another thing that tends to put me off canon het ships is the tendency to
"male lead is 40, female (lead?) is 24" either by canon or casting. I don't like the inherent level of power imbalance this gives the relationship unless female characters are really well developed in their own right.
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[personal profile] finch 2018-12-14 08:18 am (UTC)(link)
I think what usually does me in is #2, especially when there's someone else the main character has like 1000000x more chemistry with but they're not a socially-acceptable love interest option.

You sure did just nail what I love about Han and Leia's relationship in the new canon.

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[personal profile] ineptshieldmaid 2018-12-14 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
And, I mean, she does technically deserve better probably, but she wants Peter, and she should get what she wants, and she’s not going to put up with him one second longer than he’s worth it, and he knows that and he’s okay with it, because he has things he might have to give her up for too.

I haven't actually read the most recent one yet, but.... yeah, this!

Also, everything you said about Han/Leia

[personal profile] deborah_judge 2018-12-14 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I completely agree with you. Most of my ships are het but are rarely canon.

Especially this: there will be annoying gender role and heteronormativity stuff mixed up in canon het. Even if the canon is trying really hard to subvert it and point out that this couple really are equal partners and feminist and stuff, they will be having to lampshade that hard because the reverse is so much more common, and it makes me tired.

And yeah, on the few occasions the writers do write a canon relationship that is to my tastes they then don't know what to do with it and will often destroy it for the angst. See Kara/Sam (BSG), or the classic Zoe/Wash.

I do often ship things that were *almost* canon, or that were one-sided in canon, because then I can play out how they *could* have gone in a way that suits my tastes.

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[personal profile] amaresu 2018-12-14 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I love MacLeod/Amanda so much. I love that they even had a discussion about how they wouldn't work as the Ine and Only, but that they're best friends anyways. I live how when she first showed up and Tessa got insecure Amanda actually took the time to reassure her that she wasn't interested in stealing Duncan away. I move that Amanda and Ann became friends. One of the best male/female friendships.

It actually makes me more upset about all the crap that happened with Amanda and Nick.

I really value friendship so any canon get that acts like the friendship isn't enough or that have a romance is the natural end point makes me angry. I'm getting angry at Warehouse 13 just thinking about it.

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[personal profile] stellar_dust 2018-12-14 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel like i saw something recently that did an ok job with this, what was it .... Oh! Parks&Rec. Leslie/Ben and April/Andy do a reasonably good job of avoiding most of these. They actually almost faked me out that ben/leslie was going to go a terrible cliche direction but then they righted the ship and it was impressive. I'm less sure about B99 .. one day I'll catch up and will evaluate, but the main ship started out a little too boy-relentlessly-harasses-uninterested-girl-until-she-dates-him for me to get 100% behind it. I also think most of the relationships on Bones were handed well, though admittedly i haven't watched the last several seasons. But yeah, i haven't wanted fic for the ones that work for me in canon.

and i agree that usually even if i ship it I'm more interested in fic that was written before it became canon or that ignores how it played out in canon, msr being the classic example. With the caveat that i haven't watched the last season, but my expectations are low.

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[personal profile] duskpeterson 2018-12-14 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
1) Isn't half the point of writing fanfic to fix what the canon writers did when they screwed up? (You sort of say that in your last point.)

2) I am so totally primed to read your fic now, because you clearly know how to write relationships.

3) "or turn a platonic relationship romantic"

I feel a little shy about saying this, and I will wave my slash-fanfic-writing card before doing so, but . . .

This happens all the time when fanficcers tackle intense male-male platonic relationships in canon. *All the time.* And I can recite to myself all I want the data for lack of gay characters in media, and the fact that two zillion versions of the characters occur in big fandoms, so why *shouldn't* some of them be gay? I totally agree with that and am happy that King Arthur and Lancelot have finally had the opportunity to express their love for each other.

But.

As a person who's been in two committed platonic relationships, it just hurts me hard when I read a canon book with a close platonic relationship between two men, and then check AO3 in hopes of finding fic about this lovely platonic relationship, and discover that every single one of the two dozen fics there slashes the canon. I feel like my kind is being erased.

(I realize it's even more likely to happen with canon male-female friendships, because everyone has watched "When Harry Met Sally" and knows that platonic male-female friendships can't exist. I just don't think this is exclusively a hetfic issue.)
Edited 2018-12-14 15:19 (UTC)

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[personal profile] lannamichaels 2018-12-14 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
If a character is introduced specifically to be the Love Interest, it is very likely they will never rise to the level of Interesting In Their Own Right.

YES. I started watching Midnight, Texas a month or so ago and have been going through it slowly (I'm still in the first season) but I have been contemplating making a post about "how do you identify a Love Interest(tm)" since I identified the Love Interest at first sight. She is pretty in the hollywood-girl-next-door way. She is ultra non-threatening. The only thing she has to contribute to the plot is having to do with the dude. Her main struggle is ultra mundane and full of dated tropes: Her dad doesn't want her to date, so she has to sneak around with the protag. The other two women in the cast are 1) an assassin, and 2) a witch. The assassin is in a committed relationship. The witch is maybe or maybe not getting together with a dude who is on the rebound, but it is vastly different from the main love interes stuff since Fiji, the witch, has a lot more going on than Creek, the love interest whose name I never remember, does.

Interestingly enough, Creek, the love interest, is written out in season two. Because I guess the showrunners got a clue? We shall find out once I get that far in the show ;)

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[personal profile] sciatrix 2018-12-14 03:48 pm (UTC)(link)
There’s also a lot of “He was a boy. She was a girl. Can I make it any more obvious?” Yes. Yes you do need to do more work than that.

YES THANK YOU GOOD LORD. I always wind up sitting there and going, like... "god, the heterosexuals must have the most unappealing relationships if this is the best they can do to justify why they're together. Like, did you just decide to get married to whoever was nearby, convenient, and had a tab A/slot A compatibility?" Whoof.

There’s a large cohort of people who think the only interesting story about romance is How They Got Together.

This is made worse by the fact that the only other period of relationship we often see in things like Literary Fiction is... established relationship from the point of view of someone (often a middle-aged dude) who is Out Of Love and Bored and Looking For Someone New And Really Attractive, and if he doesn't find her the "interesting" thing seems to be a lot of angsting about how terrible his current wife is.

I hate this.

Anyway, canon het I am 100% here for: Jake and Amy, Brooklyn 99: this show does a really good job for me of:

a) having Jake work on himself to be much less of a garbage fire over the course of the show until they get together
b) having both of them work pretty hard to like, be decent people to each other; most of the conflict in the will-they-won't-they is either timing (did one of them start dating someone else? awkward!) or someone having a rough time working out their own internal feelings and figuring out exactly what they actually want
c) it's not remotely the only healthy established relationship in the show (Holt and Kevin, and also what we see of Terry and )
d) Probably Amy deserves better, but this is pretty clearly what she wants, flaws and all
d.i.) and Jake not only agrees (which can be annoying when it's all about how much of a pedestal the dude puts the lady on) but makes his agreement Not Her Problem and works on his own shit instead
e) over time, I have carefully come to trust the writers a LOT more than I did at the beginning, in part because of the way they have handled Rosa and Charles' friendship over time and I finally got to trust that there were never, ever going to go back to will-they-won't-they after she said "absolutely not."

I... still don't seek out as much fic, but I do really strongly ship it now when I didn't start, and a lot of that is watching things unfold and watching both characters apparently moving at their own pace. And the relationship conflicts tending towards "learning to live with each other" and "learning to be there for one another" as a process rather than "will they won't they" otherwise.
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[personal profile] sciatrix 2018-12-14 04:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I meant to also add Guardians of the Galaxy's Peter and Gamora, which I actually do seek out fic for on occasion because:

a) the movies aren't particularly focused on their relationship? I mean, the first one kind of is, but I didn't start giving any shits about it whatsoever until vol. 2, which is actually much more driven to my mind by other familial relationships for both of them: Peter and his father Ego and adopted father Yondu, and Gamora and her adopted sister Nebula. Compared to the looming spectres of those relationships driving the canon, their relationship in vol. 2. is a supporting but present interaction. By Infinity War, it's stepped more to the forefront again--but there's so much going on in Infinity War that you don't see so much in the way of, like, normal slice-of-life or anything like their lives outside of a Crisis. I think fandom is really good for that, and so the overall effect is to show us that there's a strong, good relationship there that is strengthening over time without actually giving us a lot of focus on how it got there. Gives fandom something to do while also enticing it to do it in the first place.
b) Gamora definitely deserves better, but also there are aspects about Peter that clearly fascinate her and make her want him. A lot of her tension seems, to me, to be about being afraid of the vulnerability of actually wanting something--there's definite character traits particularly about Gamora herself that make her relationships interesting to me.
c) There's no relationship escalator that I can see in the canon so far (and it's looking like there might not be a ton of followup). Admittedly, vol 1 and vol2 take place over about three months, whereupon we go from "I'm fascinated by you and catch myself becoming fascinated, whereupon I panic and threaten you because fuck you for making me vulnerable" to "okay fine maybe I feel something here, but I'm working on feeling safe about that" to "we're in a relationship, we haven't bothered to change anything else overtly, and we're clearly still doing the same job and living with the same adopted family now but I'm okay with being vulnerable around you and OH FUCK MY FAMILY OF ORIGIN HAS COME BACK TO HAUNT ME SHIT" by Infinity War. There is zero focus on both of them, like, advancing in Realness as a couple, and even though they've got a kid in that adopted family it's also made extremely clear that they aren't the kid's primary parent (which is, of course, Rocket).
d) so much of the tension is about Gamora feeling emotionally safe and Peter trying to make that happen, and even though the ways in which he's going about that are not always ideal for all people, it feels like he is carefully watching her reactions the entire time and very attuned to her and her comfort levels? (by vol 2, anyway). I'm here for women who are terrified of vulnerability and men who are thinking about how to do the work to let them feel safe.

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[personal profile] author_by_night 2018-12-14 03:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I generally am a canon shipper, but still I agree with a LOT of this. Especially:

But it can also happen when a long-standing character suddenly gets shoehorned into being The Love Interest and all their other storylines drop away.

This is a common issue, I think. Especially with Will They/Won't They. Also, a lot of WTWT has that be the characters' main goals, so that really, there's little for them to do once they finally get together. But if you end the story on them finally getting together, often the audience will be sick of them.

Leslie and Ben from Parks and Rec briefly fell into this trap during the "will they won't they" phase, but once they do get together again, the show does a great job of giving them their own stories - without making it seem like they aren't together.
Edited 2018-12-14 15:55 (UTC)
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[personal profile] cadenzamuse 2018-12-14 03:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Re: Brooklyn 99, Amy is definitely way too good for Jake. But this is another situation where the girl deserves better, but she wants this dude, and she deserves to get what she wants. (Although weirdly, Peter/Beverly has always just felt off to me.)

I also feel like Wash/Zoe was only good because Joss Whedon didn't get enough airtime to ruin it. :-/
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[personal profile] mindstalk 2018-12-14 04:16 pm (UTC)(link)
...have you seen Serenity???

Willow/Tara had a good relationship, IIRC even surviving the rocks of Willow's magic abuse, then surprise death.

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[personal profile] mindstalk 2018-12-14 04:23 pm (UTC)(link)
'“despite canon” (see: Miles/Ekaterin)'

?

=====

Maybe I missed something, but your post does seem to condense as "if it's flawed (in long list of ways) I won't ship it, and if it's perfect I won't ship it (because I don't need to)"

Like, if the canon het isn't emotionally well-supported... people have ships that have *no* basis in the canon. Are you saying that weak canon support poisons the well more than none?

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[personal profile] meridian_rose 2018-12-14 06:33 pm (UTC)(link)
#1 and #2 are a huge problem! Especially when shippers will ship anything except the canon ship because it's a case of either/both of those but the show writers seem oblivious!
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[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2018-12-14 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a fantastic critique; thank you.

I agree that Wash/Zoe was pretty great in Firefly.

And White Collar's Peter/Elizabeth was pretty good. They only went on the escalator at the very end. But sometimes they wanted the audience to approve of his early stalking behavior, which was deeply weird.

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[personal profile] hlagol 2018-12-14 07:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel like you've hit the nail(s) on the head. It's either bad het, or it's good het and I, therefore, don't have fic urges. 95% of time, one of those two cases are true.

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[personal profile] anehan 2018-12-14 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, all of this, but especially this:

Let’s face it, there will be annoying gender role and heteronormativity stuff mixed up in canon het.

I've reached the point where most of the time canon het makes me nope really fast irrespective of how well it's done, because I'm just so tired of all the bullshit. All the awful canon het that I've seen and all the real-world heteronormative bullshit have combined to make me so weary of it all that I just don't have the energy for canon het.

There are exceptions. Give me Anne Elliot and Frederick Wentworth, or Sophy Stanton-Lacy and Charles Rivenhall, or Laura Chant and Sorensen Carlisle, to name a few. It'd be interesting to try to figure out what it is that makes me like canon het. (One thing that all those ships have in common is that the relationship is either the main plot point or at least a really important plot point in canon. They are also all novel canons, so there's enough space to really develop the characters and the relationship.)

A bit tangentially, I find the Peter/Beverley ship to be pretty interesting in that it seems rather popular in the tiny Rivers of London fandom, yet I really don't like it myself. I know that at least part of it is because I like the idea of Peter/Nightingale so much that I have a hard time of caring for any other ships for either of them. However, part of it is that there's something about not only Peter/Beverley but also Peter/women-Peter-finds-attractive dynamic in general that bothers me. I have only read the novels just once (and Lies Sleeping not at all), so I'd need to re-read them to even begin to unpack what it is about it that rubs me the wrong way.
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[personal profile] mirrorofsmoke 2018-12-15 12:50 am (UTC)(link)
Stopping to scream joyously because you know Sorry and Laura And I’ve nwver met anyone else who does.
They’re an excellent couple.

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[personal profile] thenewbuzwuzz 2018-12-14 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Kudos. Some great points. :) *totally ships canon het*

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[personal profile] highlander_ii 2018-12-16 07:41 am (UTC)(link)
My usual problem with canon het (ships in gen, but they're almost always het, so we'll lean there) is that once canon reaches the 'they're together' part, the writers have this odd tendency to forget to write the show they started with and start writing 'canon het couple - the soap opera'. If I wanted to watch a soap, i'd get into daytime tv. i want my canon!drama/scifi/whatever thing.
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[personal profile] fayanora 2018-12-16 07:50 am (UTC)(link)
I make it a point to avoid killing my queer characters, in my writing.

As to het relationships, one of the few I have in my stories is interesting in that not only is it an interspecies relationship (human man, kitsune woman), they can't get married because she's nobility and he's not. (Also because kitsune society frowns on interspecies relationships, since they can't breed together.) But they're okay with that. Oh yeah, and she's arguably the more important character. They're both a bit minor so far, mainly just friends of the main character's family so far, but that will change in later books, where both their importance will increase.

Oh yeah, and they both have their own things going on. She because she's nobility, him because he dies important stuff for the Thunderbirds.
Edited (Added a paragraph) 2018-12-16 07:52 (UTC)
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[personal profile] labingi 2018-12-16 11:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I really enjoyed this and totally agree with you about Han and Leia.
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[personal profile] technocracygirl 2018-12-17 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
I think B99 does it well, and so does Leverage. (At least with Nate and Sophie. Hardison/Parker/Elliot are my OT3.)
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[personal profile] nenya_kanadka 2018-12-18 06:27 am (UTC)(link)
Huh, I'm a few books behind on Rivers of London and so far Peter/Beverley hasn't worked for me at all. But I'll be interested to see if that changes as I catch up!

It's an unpopular opinion in most places I've seen, but I agree with you about Han and Leia. On the one hand, it was sad to think they'd grown apart or had major conflicts. But on the other hand it's utter iddy catnip for me to see two characters who deeply love each other and choose over and over to be part of each other's lives even when it takes an unusual form (drifting apart and back together, or being married but not living in the same place, or having other lovers but also treasuring the bond between them--I see I'm just restating some of the "not on the relationship escalator" options and that's definitely part of it!). So I loved the idea that Han and Leia might be living quite different lives from each other at the start of the sequel trilogy--but they're also still finding comfort in each other. (That hug! <3) And just because we saw them at a point when they weren't in each other's pockets doesn't mean there haven't been times when they *were* spending more time together, between the OT and now, either.

Also I'm not even really in Highlander fandom, but Duncan/Amanda is delightful. Largely because Amanda, but also because of the poly comet thing. They've figured out a way that they can be in each other's lives that works for them as the people they are in the situation they are in, and to me that's so satisfying.

(Icon: a character I (femslash) ship like burning with another character...in a very similar sort of poly-comet style. But I ship it hard.)

ETA: And Amy/Rory on Doctor Who was a perfect storm of 13 and 6, which was why while I liked Amy fine and was fine in theory with romance in the TARDIS, I didn't see it as the epic love story I think I was supposed to.
Edited 2018-12-18 06:44 (UTC)
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[personal profile] sarahthecoat 2018-12-19 01:57 pm (UTC)(link)
AH, all of these, but especially #5, when writers seem to think life ends at the altar, i feel sorry for whoever might be married to them.
Probably under the WTWT category, when i got house md out of the library a few years back, one series after another, the story line that got recycled about three too many times was "i can't be my best as a doctor when i'm in love". PUHLEEZE, this is not how life, work, or romance operates! and if you insist on this as the engine for your story, at least have the character GROW from it. In ANY direction, pick one, or more!
SUPER interesting discussion!!
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[personal profile] fay_e 2018-12-23 07:26 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you for writing all this down!

Some of my own thoughts, if it's of any interest: I mostly follow het ships, but the reason why I fic is either because they aren't written very well in canon (because of the ways you listed), or I feel that the other character that was Never Written as Love Interest has a better dynamic (because of the opposite reason of your point 3 - I can't believe Character A is going to end up with Character B that A barely mentions unless A and B share a scene instead of A's travel companion / other person the entire plot revolves around).

I also have a bad habit of following series that end in the worse combination of 13 and 14 - where the believable, interesting partnership culminates in a romantic resolution, only for the ship to be pulled apart in the ending for the Good of the Universe or by canon death... I need better taste in series.

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