melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2010-04-10 02:49 pm

On original fic and fanfic

There are currently a couple of debates going around - about the problem of Sue-shaming and about mixing original fic and fanfic in communities and archives - that have combined with other stuff to make me want to write about original writing.

So, re: the debate going around about whether AO3 should allow original stuff in with the fanworks:

There are some people who want to keep a wall between original and fan fiction, and want to keep AO3 limited to fan writers. And I can see their point - I, too, am far less likely to read something if it's original: it's harder work to read, less likely to be id-tastic, when I'm in the mood for fanwork I don't want original, and either the average quality of original fic is less, or I simply don't have good enough filters for finding the good stuff with original as compared to fan work. Plus, many original writing communities are not only very different in culture to fanwriting communities, some of them are openly hostile to fanwriting, or to some of the values that my particular fanwriting community espouses.

The problem I have with that viewpoint is that the separation between original and fan work *isn't* a wall. It is, at best, a long sloping gradient with something on it that might be an attempt at a wall that has fallen over in places and wasn't very straight to begin with (and has only been there for a paltry few decades anyway.) The boundary between original and fan work is not a hard boundary. People have brought up historical RPF several times already, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only the tip of the iceberg.

I write stuff that is definitely fanfiction. I write stuff that is definitely original fiction. And I write stuff that, um, I have no bloody idea if it's one or the other.

And the thing that attracted me, as an author, to AO3, is that it's one archive where I don't have to worry if my fanwork is "enough" for it. Is it slashy enough, or too slashy? Shippy enough, or too shippy? Too porny or not porny enough? Too long or too short, not canonical enough, not finished enough, too crossovery, too script-y or meta-y or poem-y to be a proper story, not angsty enough, too much or not enough... on AO3 I can just put everything up, as a proper archive, without having to stress over categories.

I would love if "not fan-fic-y enough" was one of those categories I didn't have to worry about on AO3. And since - *for me* - the most important role of AO3 is to be an archive for fanwriters to universally preserve and organize their work, I want all the edge cases to be allowed; if that means blanket allowing original fiction (and I suspect it does), then so be it. I would, however, support a restriction that every author account must have at least one definite fanwork uploaded, to preserve the archive as primarily fannish and to filter out people who are hostile to fanfic culture. And a rule that any original work hosted on AO3 must allow derivative work.

And, sheerly out of curiosity (and not intended to be anyone's opinion on what should or shouldn't get posted at AO3): Here is a poll about some of those "edge" cases. What do you think, fandom-at-large? Original or fanwork? (And no, you don't get tickyboxes or third options. You must make a judgement! Like archives always make me do!)

Poll #2693 Is it original fic or is it fanfic?
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 128


Historical RPF about dead people!

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Fanfic
90 (70.9%)

Original
37 (29.1%)

Non-historical RPF about living people!

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Fanfic
112 (88.2%)

Original
15 (11.8%)

Historical fic set in a specific place and time but with mostly-original characters (because the people I'm writing about went unrecorded by history!)

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Fanfic
14 (11.0%)

Original
113 (89.0%)

Fic set in the present with original characters, but all about their relationships with real celebrities, places, and/or current events!

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Fanfic
44 (34.9%)

Original
82 (65.1%)

A story set in fandom with characters who are all recognizeable fangirl achetypes!

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Fanfic
92 (73.0%)

Original
34 (27.0%)

A story based on a story my great-grandma wrote that was only ever published in a tiny edition!

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Fanfic
87 (69.6%)

Original
38 (30.4%)

A story based on something in my high school literary magazine!

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Fanfic
86 (69.9%)

Original
37 (30.1%)

Fic based on a friend's unpublished and unfinished original novel!

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Fanfic
99 (80.5%)

Original
24 (19.5%)

My original story that my friend pulished fic about before my story was finished!

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Fanfic
7 (5.5%)

Original
120 (94.5%)

A non-canon AU I wrote in my own original universe that uses fannish tropes like AMTDI or "five things that never happened"!

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Fanfic
53 (43.1%)

Original
70 (56.9%)

A story where my original characters meet fandom characters!

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Fanfic
125 (99.2%)

Original
1 (0.8%)

A story my original characters meet historical characters or celebrities!

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Fanfic
55 (44.4%)

Original
69 (55.6%)

A fusion where my original characters are put into a fandom-canon universe but no canon characters appear!

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Fanfic
119 (94.4%)

Original
7 (5.6%)

A crossover where my original characters meet me and my friends!

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Fanfic
29 (23.6%)

Original
94 (76.4%)

A crossover where my original characters meet my friend's original characters!

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Fanfic
63 (51.2%)

Original
60 (48.8%)

A story about recognizable living real people where all the names have been elided or changed!

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Fanfic
56 (44.8%)

Original
69 (55.2%)

A story about anthropomorphized objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
39 (31.5%)

Original
85 (68.5%)

A story about anthropomorphized *fannish* objects or concepts!

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Fanfic
92 (73.6%)

Original
33 (26.4%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale where all of the names, the setting, most of the details and the ending are different!

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Fanfic
42 (33.3%)

Original
84 (66.7%)

A retelling of a myth or fairy tale to make it work in the framework of my original universe or with my original characters!

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Fanfic
33 (26.6%)

Original
91 (73.4%)

An obvious parody/pastiche of a published author's style and subject matter that doesn't reference any of their characters or settings!

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Fanfic
57 (45.6%)

Original
68 (54.4%)

A side story to my fanfic epic, about two original characters from the epic, which based only on internal evidence could be set in a non-fannish world!

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Fanfic
91 (72.8%)

Original
34 (27.2%)

A novel set in [fandom A] that's all about original characters who live around the world from canon events so the only explicit reference to canon is passing allusions to distant events!

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Fanfic
112 (88.9%)

Original
14 (11.1%)

An AU story based around minor OCs from an AU of an AU of an AU that has since been thoroughly jossed!

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Fanfic
95 (75.4%)

Original
31 (24.6%)

A novel about characters that started out as fanfic OCs or AUs of canon characters but I have deliberately moved outside the fandom context!

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Fanfic
24 (19.2%)

Original
101 (80.8%)

A shared world written by many authors with no "primary" text or "series bible"!

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Fanfic
28 (22.6%)

Original
96 (77.4%)

Biblefic!

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Fanfic
106 (84.1%)

Original
20 (15.9%)

A slashy story about an angel that draws heavily on traditional Western angelology and eschatology, including [list of canon texts in original sense of canon texts], but is not based on specific text!

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Fanfic
32 (25.8%)

Original
92 (74.2%)

A Lovecraftian horror story that mentions the Necronomicon but is otherwise completely original!

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Fanfic
48 (38.7%)

Original
76 (61.3%)

A story that is direct commentary or critique of tropes, plots and characterizations specific to a very small subgenre but with all made-up proper names!

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Fanfic
41 (33.9%)

Original
80 (66.1%)

A novel that is mostly an original work but in which the Doctor makes a cameo (because he can!)

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Fanfic
62 (49.6%)

Original
63 (50.4%)

A professionally published story using other authors' characters and settings that the pro author loudly insists is not fanfic!

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Fanfic
104 (84.6%)

Original
19 (15.4%)



(I will stop there before poll gets even longer, but for the record, none of these are hypothetical cases - they are all either things I personally have written, or things other people who identify as fanwriters have done that I could point you to.)
sara: wood cabinet with "Library No. 137" burned on it (library 137)

[personal profile] sara 2010-04-11 04:37 am (UTC)(link)
I really do find that my "that was worth my reading time" rate is better for fic than commercially-published stuff, in the last few years. Although in the last four or five years, the majority of the stuff I'm reading offline that's not somehow work-related is...coming from online recs.
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 04:55 am (UTC)(link)
What makes artists and vidders more important than fans for whom writing original fic is part of their fannish experience? What makes them so much more important that doing something that amounts, at most, to a rule change and some tag wrangling work that will be made by wranglers that want to take it on has to be stopped because they can't get in right now like they want to?

It's tough that the fic archive got codded first, I get it. I also understand why (basically: easier and fewer resources needed). But you know? Many many fans are still waiting for their stuff, too (like, say, translation interface! International fans of non English speaking countries cannot use the archive unless they know English/are comfortable with English interfaces). That's a consequence of how the archive is getting coded. By volunteers. And yes, it kinda sucks. But we will get there, and getting pissy because some people get to play first is not going to fix anything.

Meanwhile, I'm seeing a whole lot of people policing what it means to be a fan and what activities are acceptable fannish activities.
halfeatenmoon: Sketch of a cloud in black ink on white background. (Default)

[personal profile] halfeatenmoon 2010-04-11 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
I've been following these debates a bit, and not commenting much, but something about your poll, and seeing RPF of living vs dead people right next to each other, made me think about the way historical fiction keeps coming up as a borderline case. Because my gut reaction was that historical RPF is original fic, and living people RPF is fanfic, but that flat-out doesn't make sense.

Historical RPF, more than music/actor/other living people RPF, is a place where I think fandom is defined by the community more than the source material. I'm barely even involved in historical RPF, but it seems like something that would be regarded by people outside of fandom as original fiction, but yet can rely on that fandom sense of community to be understood. It can have the fandom in-jokes, the discussion of canon, writers and beta-readers helping each other with canon nitpicking, everything that comes with writing fanfiction. I'm sure some historical RPF probably doesn't make sense to someone who isn't in fandom, because I'm sure some of it is written for a fandom audience. But I'm equally sure that some of it is probably completely comprehensible to someone who knows nothing about the fandom and reads like original, historical fiction.

It also raises some thoughts for me about how LJ/DW-based fandom seems to think of fanfiction as being about characters. I've been a part of fanfic-writing communities in other online spaces where it was just as common, and sometimes even the norm, to write fanfic that used only the setting of the canon we all liked, but telling stories with original characters. I can see that translating into historical fanfic as a particularly murky area. If you have a fannish community, a group of fans who are all fans of, I don't know, a particular part of history, and are all invested in the 'canon' of historical facts and like writing about them, I can see someone writing fanfic that has little to do with the 'canon characters', or features OCs or perhaps no characters at all, just to explore the time and place that makes up the 'setting' for that fandom. It would absolutely look like original fiction, because it has no 'canon' characters and isn't based in a made-up world, but to its audience, it's fanfic.

Hmmm. Long thoughts. I'm someone who's happy and actually eager to include people who write original fiction in fannish spaces, though I understand the aversion some people have in the case of AO3.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (existentialism)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-11 05:14 am (UTC)(link)
And I think you're setting me up in a very "here's what you oppose" way, when I'm trying to frame things as "here's what I support." I am finding this problematic.

I apologise: that's the message I was getting, but I must admit I've gotten increasingly defensive after getting the "Fanworks are X" message a lot recently where X does not cover all or any of my work. EDIT: and so I admit it's entirely plausible that it was all in my head (not sure that was clear)

I don't think there's anything wrong with you thinking the strength of fannish work being that it's not intended to be commercial, but while I appreciate that aspect myself it's definitely not the major draw or motivation for me, and I have put some of my fanworks up for commercial sale (I'm never going to make much money off them, but that's true of my original as work as well). Wanting an archive for noncommercial fiction is an entirely valid goal. But the idea of setting AO3 up to be that archive bothers me (which may of course not have been what you meant, but that was the implication I got).
Edited 2010-04-11 05:23 (UTC)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (existentialism)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-11 06:12 am (UTC)(link)
I'm not trying to make a solid case for original fic here, just poking at your argument as I think about the issue.

Would individual creators be able to create tags for their own original characters?

Well, I've already done this for an OC in a fanfic, since it was the easiest way to collect all the stories I've written with that character (one of them is already in a series based around a different character and works can't be in more than one series at once) I don't know if there's instances of people using tags for other people's fic OCs they have then written their own fic about, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Something this conversation is increasingly reminding me of is the RPF/FPF argument: I don't read RPF, it doesn't tend to hit my fanfic buttons and also squicks me, and it's irritating when RPF comes up in my FPF searches (which it does constantly). But I don't see that as an argument for removing RPF from the archive.

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-11 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
That's a good point. I'm very fond of the phrasing in a reply below - if you can't attach a fandom tag to it, then it's not for AO3 - even though that goes into the whole messy what-makes/who-defines/fandom issue.
alias_sqbr: A cartoon cat saying Ham! (ham!)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-11 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
I realised I've been replying to people without actually commenting to you, so: I really like this poll! It hurt my brain, and made me realise just how inconsistent and bizarre my mental categorisations are.

(also I'm in the process of figuring out which dw account to comment from where, so I'm here under 2 usernames, hopefully people can figure out that sqbr=alias_sqbr :))

Re: O.O

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-11 09:11 am (UTC)(link)
While we're at this, can somebody explain to me what "transformative" refers to? Is all fanfic transformative in that it transforms - by way of expanding, adding to - the original canon, or is it only transformative when it changes the canon content? Is an X-Files fic which could perfectly well work as a "lost episode" of sorts transformative in the same way in which an X-Files fic where Mulder is actually an alien is transformative?
ratcreature: reading RatCreature (reading)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2010-04-11 10:39 am (UTC)(link)
it's irritating when RPF comes up in my FPF searches
I definitely want the implementation of a NOT filter for the tags way before any expansions into any direction get tackled.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (existentialism)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2010-04-11 11:04 am (UTC)(link)
That's a really good point. The effect of having large amounts of original fic in the database will be very much related to how easily people can avoid it if they want.
lady_ganesh: A Clue card featuring Miss Scarlett. (Default)

[personal profile] lady_ganesh 2010-04-11 01:32 pm (UTC)(link)
IIRC, the coders are working on a NOT filter as [personal profile] ratcreature suggested.

And yeah-- there's a lot of unusual tags out there, which is fine (and sometimes hilarious). But those tags add to the size of the archive and the possibility of ambiguous tags (like "Apollo" and the like) that a user might sift through.

And honestly I'm not sure what my own position is, so poke away! (I do feel strongly that working on functionality for non-writers is really important, but that doesn't mean I hate original fic.)
lady_ganesh: A Clue card featuring Miss Scarlett. (my son is smokin' hot)

[personal profile] lady_ganesh 2010-04-11 01:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Artist and vidders are not more important. But they aren't less important. Right now the policy on the archive for fic is 'if you call it transformative work, put it on the archive.' For me, this policy is fine-- no one's digging through the archive for original stuff and getting it taken down. Other people want an explicit green light for original work. Which, you know, it's a good debate, it's an interesting debate. I've written a lot of OCs and historical fic myself that might fall in the grey area.

But my opinion is that the AO3 is about transformative work, and transformative work should be privileged above work that is not considered as such. It's not 'getting pissy because other people get to play first,' it's having opinions about the stated goals of the archive and how best to implement them. When you (general you) say 'art and vids are fine, but they're just going to have to wait because it's hard to deal with them,' what statement does that make about art and vids?
lady_ganesh: A Clue card featuring Miss Scarlett. (Chloe grin (smallville))

Re: [edited for clarity]

[personal profile] lady_ganesh 2010-04-11 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
It depends on why you're reading fiction in part too, I think-- sometimes you want comfort food, sometimes you want something new.
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
But 'transformative work' is a legal argument. No one in many of the fandoms I'm in really thinks in those terms. What you're effectively saying is that some fan creators should suck it up and live in uncertainty, and of course, suck it up if the AO3 ever decides to pursue the enforcement of one of the rules it has already in place. Because other fan creators are getting antsy because their works can't be hosted to the archive yet. For technical reasons.

The AO3 was not an advocacy branch; its goal is to host creative fanworks in a place that will not go down. I get it, original works is not on your definition of fandom and fannish creativeness (and probably not on the definition of whomever thought that line in the first place). Well, guess what? You (general you) don't get to define fandom and fannish creations for everyone else. This reads to me as strictly a case of media fandom/journal fandom thinking their way of doing fandom is The Way.

When you (general you) say 'art and vids are fine, but they're just going to have to wait because it's hard to deal with them,' what statement does that make about art and vids?


That they're harder to deal with. The work on the art part has already begun; they've begun taking opinions for design decisions. There's no coding needed for allowing original work; it doesn't take away those people working on it. It will not slow it down.
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)

[personal profile] hl 2010-04-11 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Your poll broke my brain. I actually answered everything very sure of myself, and then a couple of hours later, still thinking about it, changed my mind. (For the record, for me it fell mostly to original when there was doubt; I now think I would say anything of them was fanwork if it were written/posted in a fannish context. Haven't changed my vote, and don't plan to unless you would prefer it, as I think you were looking for first impressions?)
stellar_dust: Stylized comic-book drawing of Scully at her laptop in the pilot. (OTW)

Re: O.O

[personal profile] stellar_dust 2010-04-11 02:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I would say that all of those are transformative - maybe not in the same way, but I'm not sure gradations really matter for this discussion?

But let's see -- the OTW uses this definition of "transformative works," from a US Supreme Court decision: "adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the [source] with new expression, meaning, or message."
lady_ganesh: A Clue card featuring Miss Scarlett. (Default)

[personal profile] lady_ganesh 2010-04-11 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Because my gut reaction was that historical RPF is original fic, and living people RPF is fanfic, but that flat-out doesn't make sense. Yeah, this debate has been interesting, because it really brought home how many assumptions I've made about work-- and how some of them are mine, some of them are norms I've absorbed, etc.

Re: O.O

[personal profile] whatistigerbalm 2010-04-11 06:20 pm (UTC)(link)
but I'm not sure gradations really matter for this discussion?

I imagine not - this is one for my own journal that got sparked, in part, by the discussions here. But thanks for the link!
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2010-04-11 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I want a "depends" option. :( But I did my best.
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2010-04-11 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I should note that to me, a lot of the dividing line is not in the type of story, but in the context where it's produced. Anthropomorfic written by fans in a fandom context, often referencing fannish tropes and cliches--fanfiction. The dish running away with the spoon, not so much. They're both about anthropomorphized inanimate objects, but produced for different audiences in different social contexts.
dharma_slut: They call me Mister CottonTail (Default)

[personal profile] dharma_slut 2010-04-11 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I read Spander until I wanted to vomit from the sheer awfulness of 75% of what I read-- but I still went hunting for moar Spander. Like potato chips.
dharma_slut: They call me Mister CottonTail (Default)

[personal profile] dharma_slut 2010-04-11 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
*slaps forehead* That's how I can present my Stella/Alegra scenes that I had to write while I was writing Sarabande!

Fandom has got some real cool things to share with original writers.
dharma_slut: They call me Mister CottonTail (Default)

That reminds me of a story...

[personal profile] dharma_slut 2010-04-11 08:21 pm (UTC)(link)
There is a district in Chicago that was famous for the chocolates factory that was in it, and when all the old buildings got turned into lofts, some of the new tenants wanted to close the chocolate factory that had made the area famous. They didn't like to smell the chocolate when they left their upscale dwellings...

Daley gave them all the big razzoo, though.
dharma_slut: They call me Mister CottonTail (Default)

[personal profile] dharma_slut 2010-04-11 08:29 pm (UTC)(link)
There is one reason only, that I can imagine, why someone who didn't approve of fanworks would post to AO3, and that would be in order to troll.
dharma_slut: They call me Mister CottonTail (Default)

[personal profile] dharma_slut 2010-04-11 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
How about the Flashman series?

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