melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2011-04-07 08:59 pm

Love & Marriage

One thing I love in a good SF story is ways of doing love, marriage, and romance that don't buy in to our society's idea of love+romance+sex+monogamy all on one single person as the only way to do it.

I have a small collection of worlds that have come up with better ways, and I have a great deal of fun trying to fit the 'shipping debates from various fandoms into these other ways of looking at love. I especially love the way that many of them explicitly acknowledge the value of non-sexual, sometimes non-romantic, relationships that are of equal importance with the sexual ones.

Since I've been playing with Dresden files crossover fic in a couple of these fandoms lately, I thought it might be time to introduce you all to some of my favorites! Plus I really want people to do more AUs using these ideas, so I am selfishly posting this in order to increase the probability (even if only slightly.) So here are my five favorite alternate marriage/romance systems as displayed in SF, in order of increasing complexity.

GROUP MARRIAGE
Original Source: Many, but you should all read The Tale of the Five because Diane Duane writes it more joyously than anyone. And without the creepy bits that Heinlein puts in.
Fanworks: Many! Not many TotF fanworks though. Which is a travesty.
Someone else's explanation: Group Marriage @ wikipedia

Explanation: Presumably all of my readers have at least a passing familiarity with the concept of polyamory and it not being horrible, right? Group marriage is a subset of polyamory (though there's an argument to be made that actually modern Western polyamory was born out of group marriage as portrayed by Heinlein.) Group marriage involves a group of more than two people (usually of at least two genders) formalizing a relationship in which they share, usually, some form of household and parenting duties, commit to the relationships within the marriage as their most important relationships, and generally agree to some level of sexual or emotional fidelity to the marriage partners as well.

Most of the other relationships described below are really subsets of group marriage, and a lot of SF includes versions of it, but the 'simple' form (not really simple at all!) that is just a group of people deciding they all love each other enough to attempt perfect union is always going to be my favorite. Especially when it's built into a world where that is considered completely natural and normalized.

Tale of the Five (Also sometimes called the Middle Kingdoms series) by Diane Duane is the series that does it best. It's a fairly standard High Fantasy trilogy about dragons and lost swords and magic and kingship and evil sorcerers, but it's set in a world where bisexuality and polyamory are the norm - all relationships are open unless otherwise stated, and marriages can have as many people as you want. And she works this into the cloth of the world seamlessly, with all the ramifications worked out. When I'm writing an everybody's-bi-everybody's-poly story, I think of it as a Middle Kingdoms AU.

The most important thing with writing a group marriage and making it interesting is to acknowledge that every smaller combination of people within the group has their own relationship within the larger marriage, and those relationships are all different, with their own dynamics, and all worth their own exploration. You get a good group together, marry them, and then start exploring all the inner 'ships, and you can keep exploring forever. (One marriage in the Middle Kingdoms has seven people in it, which makes 128 total relationships. Someday I am going to write a drabble series that explores them all.)

Group marriage is the obvious solution to shipping wars in about 90% of fandoms.


LINE MARRIAGE
Original Source: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
Fanworks:Not as much as there should be of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress fanfic.
Someone else's explanation: Line Marriage @ the Heinlein concordance

My Explanation: Heinlein played around a lot with polyamory, but I think line marriage is my very favorite of all of his ideas about sex, if only because it's so functional.

Basically, a line marriage is a poly marriage where every few years, as the older members of the marriage die, they marry in young people to replace them. So the marriage always has (usually it seems like a dozen or so) members ranging in age from teenagers to elderly. As a result, the marriage itself never dies. Children of a line marriage marry into other lines, and don't inherit from their parents, all the assets remaining with the marriage. In a lot of ways, a line marriage is like a corporation, only less soulless and with more sex.

Anyone in a line marriage is free to have sex with anyone else in the line, but sex and romantic love are not really the important part. And there are often complicated sub-relationships within the line, with some pairings and participants far more sexual than others, and also things going on around seniority, with lots of room for cross-generational goodness. The oldest members lead the family, but it requires a unanimous vote to add a new member.

I love line marriage; I rather suspect it's the best idea Heinlein ever had about sex. Line marriage is a fun way to do a family-of-choice that's a bit more structured and might outlive its founders, especially if you like adding a bit of incestuous overtones and/or age difference for spice. Crane Poole & Schmidt is totally a line marriage. So is SG1. So is the Batfamily. (In fact, a better example of a line marriage than the Batfamily I cannot imagine. Except for the way the writers are uncomfortable with line marriage and keep trying to make the younger members into blood relations: sure.)

SEDORETU
Original Source: Short stories in A Fisherman of the Inland Sea and The Birthday of the World by Ursula K. Le guin (A Fisherman of the Inland Sea, Unchosen Love and Mountain Ways)
Fanworks: An Ever-Fixed Mark, the amazing Merlin AU of amazing.
Someone else's explanation: The Introduction to 'Mountain Ways'.

Explanation: On the planet O, there are Men and Women. There are also Morning people and Evening people. Your identity as Morning or Evening -- your moiety -- is just as inborn and immutable, and at least as important, as your gender. You are of the same moiety as your mother, and the only tabooed sexual relationships on O are between people of the same moiety.

A marriage on O has four participants: a Morning man, a Morning woman, an Evening man, and an Evening woman. The Morning Woman and the Evening man sleep together, and their children are Morning; the Evening Woman and the Morning man sleep together, and their children are Evening. The two women also sleep together, as do the two men. The Morning pair don't sleep together, nor do the Evening pair, but they are expected to have close nonsexual relationships.

This is complicated enough, especially since nobody is getting married until there is a complete foursome together, but Le Guin managed to queer it up even in canon: apparently, while it is not common, it is not entirely unknown for a sedoretu to have three men or three women in it, or for people to be genderqueer within the sedoretu. As long as the morning/evening ratios are right, and nobody's sleeping with anybody from their own moiety, the neighbors are generally willing to look the other way; moiety is more important than gender.

Sedoretu are amazing fun, and there need to be for fandom AUs that use them: I only know of the one that's linked above, in BBC Merlin fandom. But there are so many other fandoms that have central foursomes for whom a sedoretu would be perfect! To start with I really want to see some Stargate teams sent to O and assumed to be sedoretu. But there are plenty more possibilities. To bring up Harry Potter again: Harry and Hermione are both Evening people, obviously, and Ron and Ginny are both Morning since Molly obvs. is, so they can all get married in a sedoretu! And Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione can be awesome, and so can Ron/Harry and Ginny/Hermione, and meanwhile Ron and Ginny can be all sibling-y together and Harry and Hermione can be total best friends.

Really in any situation where people solve the problem of slash + canon het by pairing up the het love interests too becomes an amazing sedoretu. This happens especially a lot in RPS fandoms but there are lots of fandoms where sedoretu could fit seamlessly. (Hodgins and Bones are Evening, Booth and Angela are Morning: y/y/mfy? And Wilson needs to find a nice Evening girl who wants to stick around, so that he and Cuddy and House can get married already.)

BRAIDS
Original Source: The Gameplayers of Zan by M. A. Foster + the rest of the Ler trilogy
Fanworks: None that I know of. ):
Someone else's explanation: Braid at the SF wikia

My Explanation: the Ler are a genetically engineered subspecies of humanity, intended to be 'supermen' but ending up more different than better. They live on a reservation on Earth and have worked very hard at building a separate cultural identity for themselves.

Ler have a complicated sexual cycle in which they go through long periods of sexuality and asexuality. They also have only two fertile periods in their lives, which means that the only way the population can grow is through very rare multiple births or third pregnancies. As a result, they have a marriage system design to maximize fertility and genetic mixing while still allowing a stable family structure.

The basic Ler social structure is a braid. The core of the braid are two insiblings, who were born and raised in the braid, but are not genetically related to each other. When the insiblings undergo their first fertile period, they have sex, and have a child together; that child is the elder outsibling. Before their second fertile period, each of the insiblings finds an outsibling from another braid who is about to reach their first period of fertility, and "weave" the new outsiblings into the braid. The children of the outsibling+insibling pairings become the insiblings of the next generation. Finally, the outsiblings have their second fertile period together, and their child becomes the braid's younger outsibling. The genes of the braid's founding insiblings are carried down through the generations without the insiblings ever being blood relations. (There is a science-ex-machina reason why the gender ratios almost always work out right.)

Relationships within the braid, and how those relationships change between sex allowed, sex required, and sex forbidden before & after the fertile periods, can get really chewy and complicated. (Also, while homosexuality is pretty much invisible in this canon, there are various ways that they get queered up anyway. My username comes from a character in this book & I am amused that even ten years ago I chose to identify with the minor character who is vaguely genderqueer and markedly, freakishly asexual by her society's standards.)

Braids are chock full of incesty fun. In fact, they are practically an excuse to do incest 'ships without making anyone be actually genetically related. One example of a story that would be *immeasurably* improved by giving them Ler braids is Wuthering Heights. It also works really well with fandoms where there's a core het partnership, and then canon brings in outside love interests for them instead. No need for tearful breakups or writing people out, just weave all four of 'em into the braid!

TROLL ROMANCE
Original Source: Homestuck
Fanworks: SO MUCH TROLL FIC
Someone else's explanation: Troll Romance the short version

My Explanation: Oh, Homestuck trolls. I don't even read the blasted comic, and yet.

Homestuck's trolls acknowledge four types of romantic relationships: Matespritship, Kismesissitude, Moirallegiance, and Auspisticism. We are told that the main thing troll romance has in common with human romance is that it's incredibly confusing for everyone involved, and most of what we know about it in practice comes from the experiences of a group of very young trolls who have other things to think about - it's like trying to derive human romance by reading Twilight.

As a result there is a lot of debate in the fandom as to what the four 'quadrants' actually involve, complicated of course by individual fans' shipping preferences, so any attempt at explaining them is probably going to cause controversy. There have also been various attempts to systematize the relationships, but I happen to disagree strongly with fanon on that, so we're not going to get into it here.

Troll relationships are usually put on a grid, which each relationship in a quadrant. The left column is the "concupiscent" or sexual relationships; the right column are the "conciliatory" or nonsexual romances. The top row are the "red" or postive relationships; the bottom row are the "black" or negative relationships. A troll's goal for fulfillment is to have someone to fill each of their four quadrants, presumably in a stable or semi-stable way. The relationships are (ideally) mutual - if A is B's matesprit, then B is A's - but each of the four relationships is not necessarily linked to the others. Gender is irrelevant. Trolls also believe that each person has a destined partner for each of the four quadrants, who they will eventually find, hopefully in time.

There is a lot more symbolism and terminology and argument around troll relationships and biology, but I am not going into it all here.

Matespritship is Lust and Liking. It's the closest to what we think of as human romance and love. But trolls don't expect matespritship to be the be-all and end-all of romance, and don't expect a matespirit to give them everything they need, so matespiritship is both simpler and more complicated. I imagine that without the pressure to be everything to each other, the illusions of love and perfection get to last a lot longer.

Kismesissitude is lust plus hate. It is what fandom likes to call "Foe Yay" or hatesex - nemeses holding on to a rivalry fuelled by unwilling respect and sexual tension. Humans - or at least fannish humans - tend to have a good understanding of these relationships, there are certainly enough people who ship them in fandom, but among humans, generally a "happy ending" for such a pairing is supposed to include not being enemies any more. Trolls, on the other hand, consider the foeyay relationship to be the goal - kismeses becoming matesprits happens but is far from ideal. (Matesprits becoming kismeses happens a lot too. Sometimes a relationship oscillates wildly between the two down the concupiscent side.)

Moirallegiance is positive feelings without lust. This is probably close to how fandom feels about "partners". The duty of a moirail is to keep their partner sane and at least semi-functional, or at least stop them from snapping and killing other people, or themself. The first fandom example I can come up with is Mulder and Scully, due to it having the relevant risk of snapping and death all 'round. Holmes and Watson are moirails too. So are House and Wilson. This quadrant can be read as romantic friendship/platonic partnership, only drop the fluffy illusion endorphins part and have them see right into each other's weak points and dark places from the beginning. In some ways it's the deepest of the troll relationships, but keeping it non-sexual is important.

Auspisticeship is the relationship that probably has the most confusion about it. It is romance with neither lust nor liking. I propose that its closest analogues are relationships that humans think of as familial, like parents or siblings: you are auspistice for someone you don't necessarily always like, and don't want to sleep with -- heck no, that would be a trainwreck - but somehow you care about their welfare anyway, and your life would have an empty place without them. An auspistice apparently spends most of their time making sure their partner's other relationships are functional and at least quasi-stable, and it's implied that their most important role is to keep kismeses from killing each other. You can probably think of a fandom with characters like that, and if they aren't seen as familial, they're probably exes.

In practice, working with a network of troll relationships gets complicated fast - the fewest trolls you can have in a closed system and still mutually fill all quadrants is six, but in practice, there are these tangled webs where even trolls get quickly lost figuring out who is what to who ... kind of like human relationships, only trolls have names for more of them.

It is, however, still awesome to work out troll relationship quadrants for people. For example: Harry's matesprit is Ginny, his kismesis is Draco, and during the books Ron and Hermione fluctuate between being his moirail and his Auspistice, but I think by the last book Ron is moirail and Hermione is auspistice. Meanwhile, Hermione is matesprit with Ron and mutual auspistice with Harry, but I am less sure about her other two quadrants - I suspect the first person she played blackrom games with was Rita though, and she could probably pull off moiraillegiance with Viktor. Ron is matesprit with Hermione and moirail with Harry, and I suspect his auspistice is Ginny (I have decided incest is irrelevant in the conciliatory quadrants), but he has had no luck at all finding a proper kismesis. Ginny is matesprits with Harry, auspistices with Ron, and kismeses with Tom; I suspect she has a moirail too, we just didn't see enough of her to know who it is (but it ought to be Neville!)

See, doesn't that make a lot more sense than the 'shipping arguments people usually have? :D

Also, because I hate all the terms currently in circulation in the asexual community for the not-sexual-not-exactly-romantic-but-necessary-to-life partnerships, I am considering trying to sneak "moirail" into the discourse...


So what are your favorite fictional systems of romance and marriage? What do I need to add to this list?
cypher: (furocious pouncebeast!)

[personal profile] cypher 2011-04-08 02:34 am (UTC)(link)
Technically I think incest is irrelevant in all troll quadrants, since they don't even have the concept! XD

...But yeah, I think when translating to non-troll terms, where we have familial relationships (whereas trolls pretty much only have "serious" relationships through their quadrants, not through blood relation), it makes sense to allow family members to take on conciliatory quadrants. They're the sort of knowing-you-well, wishing-you-well relations that it's easy to see close family members filling.

Have you read urbanAnchorite's Case Studies on Moirallegiance? The Equius<>Nepeta chapter is probably my favorite look at a moirail relationship ever.
cypher: (tavros believes in fairies)

[personal profile] cypher 2011-04-08 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
I think that often makes good sense! I mean, I imagine if trolls did have family members & understand the idea of "family" the way humans do, then probably family members would wind up filling some of the emotional needs that the pale and ashen quadrants do.

(I sort of love toying with how moirallegiance works with sexual relationships -- I have seen it done in fic both where being "moirails with benefits" is fine and where there *is* something paralleling an incest taboo against moirails being physically involved.)
cypher: (carve a path for that wind to blow throu)

[personal profile] cypher 2011-04-08 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
And unrelated to Homestuck --

Group marriage is the obvious solution to shipping wars in about 90% of fandoms.

Truer words were never spoken. XD
peoriapeoriawhereart: very British officer in sweater (Brigader gets the job done)

[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2011-04-17 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe it's lab-based? A recombinant 'recipe' to shuffle a deck that's been 'stacked'...
staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea (Default)

[personal profile] staranise 2011-04-08 02:37 am (UTC)(link)
I have nothing to contribute, but this is making me grin madly. I love it! (I am more confused by the braids than the trolls. I feel like that says something about me.)
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
A diagram would be REALLY GREAT.
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
...Egads.

I think I need to come back to this diagram some time when my brain has a bit more sleep under its belt.
edgewitch: a nearly full moon with white leaves and fireflies (Default)

[personal profile] edgewitch 2011-04-08 01:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Perhaps a crappy diagram of one generation of a braid would help?

sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I...think I understand this better now! Thank you!
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Yay! Thank you, I almost grok.
bessemerprocess: Elder duckie Ursala Vernon (acid-ink) (Default)

[personal profile] bessemerprocess 2011-04-08 02:44 am (UTC)(link)
I am always a proponent of a good group marriage, and I bow to the awesomeness of this post. I'm going to spend the rest of the night squeezing my favorite characters into Sedoretu and Troll quadrants.



staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea (Default)

[personal profile] staranise 2011-04-08 03:00 am (UTC)(link)
...First I thought I couldn't make my characters fit into Troll quadrants because I write a fairly stable/positive threesome, and then I remembered a steampunk thingy I was working on and oh.

Oooh. And that's an original world, too, and I already knew their gender roles were a bit different. I wonder what I can come up with.
bessemerprocess: Elder duckie Ursala Vernon (acid-ink) (Default)

[personal profile] bessemerprocess 2011-04-08 12:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I generally also end up with pretty stable threesomes and/or foursome (or occasionally more). I don't know if you Criminal Minds, but Sedoretu with morning Reid and Garcia and evening Morgan and Prentiss is currently eating my brain.

The Troll quadrant thing is more difficult, I think, because like melannen pointed out, the fannish zeitgeist has this thing about getting everyone laid, that I actually have problem with the kismessisitude as a lot of my fandoms are lacking in people you can both hate and lust after.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-08 03:05 am (UTC)(link)
You're missing the Lortuen/Orhuen/Torluen relationships from the Sime~Gen series! And other transfer-partner relationships. (Do you know the Sime~Gen series? 'Cos I don't want to throw long stretches of background info at you if you already know how that works.) Another fandom where something other than gender is the main identifier for people and their relationships--in this case, it's called larity.

Transfer mates aren't necessarily married, and they don't exactly connect to group marriage. But a "perfect Distect marriage" is two (M-F) couples whose partners are in orhuen with each other. (Vocab page; orhuen is the a transfer dependency between same-sex couples; lortuen involves a male sime & female gen; torluen involves a female sime & male gen. Lortuen & torluen have sexual connections; orhuen doesn't.)

If that's all too confusing, I'd be happy to back up & put together something more detailed & coherent.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-08 03:30 am (UTC)(link)
Yes! That's the books!

Bio-background: Humanity has two larities, sime & gen. Simes have tentacles, and need selyn every month of their adult life to live. Gens produce selyn, enough every month for one sime's need. Match made in heaven, right?

Well, um. Simes strip selyn via tentacles; if the gen doesn't resist, it should be fine. (There's individual speed & capacity issues, but they're rarely an issue, except in the extreme cases, which, of course, three-quarters of the books focus on.) If the gen resists--by, oh, being scared of the sensation of energy transfer--the sime's biology kicks into overdrive, and you wind up with a dead gen.

More complications: children are neither sime nor gen; changeover (to sime) or establishment (to gen) happens around puberty. (Is the actual start of puberty.) A child with 2 sime parents is 2/3 likely to be sime; you can do the math for other options.

The L/O/T relationships are transfer dependencies, strong physical addictions. The couple is fixated on each other for transfer, and for the M-F options, at least somewhat for sex (fertility ties to transfer for simes, and probably for gens who donate/give transfer regularly), but opposite-sex transfer partners--who can be in a lesser kind of dependency--would generally have opposite-sex romantic partners.

In the Distect--the "rebel alliance" of people trying to allow simes & gens to find their own transfer partners--there's a lot of experimental relationships. (Finding own transfer partners is dangerous; a frightened gen is a dead gen. A lot of Tecton--the main gov't--policies are built around protecting gens.)

Um. I'm talking a lot about biology and not about the relationships, hm? I think I need to ponder how to bring up some of the relationship bits; I'm not sure how well I could describe them without the biology. Or at least, without the specialized vocabulary. (You should read them! They are fun novels with vampiric-esque overtones and deep biological dependencies and bondmates and wacky post-apocalypse politics!)
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 07:52 pm (UTC)(link)
The interesting part of the Sime/Gen books is how the biology totally drives the relationships. One of the first ones I read started off in the area where they tried to keep all this stuff sekrit and pretend to the kids that simes didn't exist, which made for some really awful disasters. No education, no exposure, you end up with untrained simes who can't control anything they're doing and dead gen a lot, so the enraged populace murder any new simes they can catch. It's very Shirley Jackson/The Lottery.
They were written by Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah. I don't know if other folks picked up and carried on in the same universe, I thought they were talking about it.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-09 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
There's extensive author-approved fanfic (all original characters) at the official site; I don't think anyone else has been allowed to publish for money.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)
It's more about the plot and politics and drama than about individual characters. It's more old-skool book-Trek style writing than what I would call mushy supernatural romance novel style. Not so much with the lingering languishing looks, more about people doing the worst thing possible every darn time.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, interesting. Not fanfic, of course--I'm thinking about the official Paramount ones, where you had a squeaky-clean 200 pages to get things done including bringing everybody back from the dead.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:45 pm (UTC)(link)
No, don't think so. And I know folks really liked Diane Duane's books, but I *think* those were longer than the very early ones. John Ford wrote popular ones too.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-09 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
We gots the lingering languishing looks! Need nightmares! Simes getting fixated on their donor gens! Gens wondering if the sime is going to have enough control long enough not to kill them! Partnerships forbidden by law & social custom! Invisible psychic powers! Tentacle sex! (Okay, we don't get any onscreen tentacle sex; you need fanfic for that part. But you get tentacles. And mentions of kids wanting to grow up so they can knit properly, with 4 or 6 needles, like mom does.)
ladyjax: (Default)

[personal profile] ladyjax 2011-04-10 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
You should look it up because it makes for interesting reading. I was only tangentially active in Sime-Gen fandom in my late teens - I got the newsletter (which might have been called Ambrov Keon but I can't remember now) and would eagerly wait for it to come in the mail.

All this to say that I still have almost all of the Sime-Gen novels (I'm missing Channel's Destiny) and was recently thinking of rereading them.
Edited 2011-04-10 01:49 (UTC)
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-09 10:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Except that transfer partners aren't bonded-for-life. Every sime needs transfer (or a kill) every month, but it doesn't have to be one specific person. If s/he meets a gen whose selyn production rate exactly matches his/her usage rate, they can get locked in synch--but this is not a lifebonding as much as a physical addiction; the body's very very comfortable when someone who's an exact match shows up, and goes into distress if that person goes away. (Biologists insist there's no emotional elements at all except those caused by temporary adrenaline & endorphin rushes; romantics insist that matchmates are fated to be together. Politicians support whichever side has the most votes this year.)

Yep, a soulmate vs reproductive mate issue would get similar results. So would something where romance/emotional bonding was removed from biological reproduction (f'rex, if you could only reproduce with someone with the same blood type, and it took a long time to figure out why some couples had kids and others just didn't).

Ooh, I do like fandoms where the adult relationships aren't presumed to boil down to "every person has ONE IDEAL PARTNER who is their ultimate companion for all purposes." There's maybe room to discuss the difference between polyamory of various flavors vs relationships that aren't love/romance based but are common enough that society's created a great deal of structure for them. They'd almost have to be derived from biology to get that common; the closest you get without biology is the buddy-cop dynamic that isn't necessarily romantic.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
The blood-type biology idea could be interesting.
What comes to mind is societal efforts to control all of this, once they figured out how to do lab tests. I mean, you'd know from childhood that you could never marry so-and-so, right?
That's different from the surprise!puberty! effects you get from sime/gen.
The intersections with property and inheritance might change things a lot.
I can see variations on the models above caused by this.
There's the one that's easy to anticipate because it's familiar--where you have arranged marriages where you may reproduce with somebody but they're not necessarily comfortable, supportive life partners. There, you'd probably get something like the Tragic Courtly Love culture, possibly including trouveres and the whole Euro 14th century blood feuds over who abducted who.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-09 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Blood type would be too simple and obvious, but something similar ... you'd need a change-in-humanity for it to work, either an apocalypse that changes human biology, or something like a colony on another planet, where minor differences that never interfered with human mating suddenly are preventing births all over the place. (What happens if you are only fertile with someone whose spinal-fluid pH balance is within a certain range of yours?)

Cue years of scientists trying to figure out what's going on, while people manage to have mates and children at whatever level they do; then you have discovery of The Real Fertility Issue and, what, erasure of current infertile marriages? Not gonna happen. (Especially if those are *maybe* fertile under just the right conditions. Cue bizarre experimentation with diet-based fertility cults.)

If there are "types," they might be known from childhood--or they might not establish until puberty; one's "fertility type" might not be knowable until one is fertile. If it's something as easily testable as blood type, and knowable from childhood, you'd probably eventually get schisms along type lines--Type A people just don't associate with Type B people, and when they fall in love, it's just tragic. Or, conversely, you have Type A brothels that Type O and B people can frequent at will because there's no risk of pregnancy. (Maybe they've fixed diseases; maybe those are dealt with in some other way.) Or upper-class parents arrange "sex friendships" between infertile teenagers, which aren't supposed to affect their later married lives.

The mind boggles. Just knowing that there are people you could & could not get pregnant with (other than "your own sex," which we already have a huge swarm of differences about) would alter social structures; being able to identify them exactly would make drastic changes in legal structures as well.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:37 pm (UTC)(link)
So, wait. There's got to be way more sime than gen, or at least, until the sime start dying off from lack of selyn because they can't find/kidnap whatsit a gen to feed off of, what with the oops-killing of gen, right?

Is killing gen by overfeeding a big deal/crime?
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-10 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh. For a long time, in Sime Territory, gens were basically "food"--every adult sime was expected to use up one gen per month for their entire adult life.

Yes, a bit of math says "this will not end well." Even if you breed the gens like mad.

They discovered channels, a type of sime that can take selyn from gens without killing, and give it to other simes. (The average gen creates a lot more selyn in a month than the average sime needs. Channels have a much higher capacity, but a gen who can match them still leaves enough to give out more. And a channel can take selyn from gens other than in transfer; they have a sort of internal battery.)

Sime territory starts much, much smaller than gen territory. From what we can figure out, when the world split into larities, most of the simes were killed or died quickly. Killing your neighbors with tentacle-attacks was frowned upon in most communities, and even if they managed to survive that, a sime who doesn't get selyn in time, every month, dies from it. So: Sime territory, relatively small pockets in the midst of huge gen territories. Gen territory: huge open regions, where kids who change over into sime are murdered as soon as they're identified, whether that's before or after they kill someone in First Need. (Not killing someone is possible--if the gen doesn't fear. Which takes a lot more trust and usually a lot more information than most of them have.)

Sime territory, pre-channels, had pens in every town where the gens were raised & stored until they were killed one at a time. Pen gens are drugged from childhood; they're the reason many simes never believed gens were human. (Kids who established as gen were often killed by relatives, often accidentally--a spike of gen fear can trigger a sime attack.)

Eventually, channels managed to prove that, duh, every adult in the region cannot kill 12 other adults per year and have a stable population in the long run, even if you think one type of adult isn't really people. They set up rules whereby normal simes (rensimes) were required to go to channels for transfer instead of killing gens. (This had problems: the kill is physically addictive. Those who've been at it long enough--more than a year into adulthood--can't stop for more than a few months before their body starts to have really bad problems, which would lead to death, except that mostly, they lead to grabbing the first available gen and killing it. Him or her, rather, except most of sime territory thinks of gens as animals.)

There are way more gens than simes. The way the biology works, there will probably always be more gens than simes, because isolated simes *die* and isolated gens don't, but in the later books, the numbers get closer to equal.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
So, a Syme produces, lets say, 10s, per month, where 1s == the amount of s required to feed on Gen (G1) for one month.

If a G1 feeds on (or whatever the verb is) S1, is that Syme (assuming they survive) left with 9s, or do they need to recharge for a month anyway?

Because if the former, you'd think a good marriage would have a family and their Syme. I mean, it seems inefficient to maintain S2 and waste 18s every month.
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-10 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Gens produce (generate) selyn. Simes need it, and can perceive it, something like an aura, and strip it with their lateral tentacles; the other tentacles are just like extra fingers (sort of) and are used to lock the arms into place so the laterals have the right kind of grip.

It's measured in "dynopters." I gather that several thousand dynopters are involved in the average transfer, but the details are very lightly touched on in canon.

Average gen produces, let's say, 10,000 d. per month.
Average sime needs, let's say, 2500 d. per month.

Except that if the gen gets scared during transfer, the sime is going to switch to a killmode attack and all the extra is wasted. Also, even if the gen is not scared, allowing three or four simes to use him for transfer (there's no correct verb for that) could kill him by draining him completely.

I don't know why there are no arrangements with one gen and two rensimes, except maybe that's iffy. Also, a gen registers as "low-field" after transfer, less interesting & attractive.

"Need" and "kill" are both technical terms used only for transfer. (Simes would say, "I require a hammer," not "I need a hammer." And taking someone's life is only called "killing" if it happened in transfer.)

All the canonical politics, except for the rebel crazies*, work hard to prevent direct transfer between rensime and gen, because gens get killed that way. A rensime *cannot* stop mid-transfer, and a gen who's scared during transfer is going to be a dead gen. This includes a gen who's scared because she just tripped on a rock and fell over.

*I like the rebel crazies. But there's reasons they remain rebel crazies for over a thousand years of canon.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
*facepalm*

I got the Symes and Gens confused making my entire comment hella confusing. Sorry!
elf: Sime hands with tentacles (Tentacles-Sime)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-11 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
Nah, is fine. The concept was understandable even though the types were mixed up.

It's a fascinating fandom; just the right amount of holes for lots of speculation about "why don't they do it this way?" And some of that has fanfic that says, "they *did* do it that way, in this other region!"
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
I love this list! It is SO GREAT. I love ALLLLLL of these to death (and it is tragic I was not familiar with a lot of them before!) Although I feel like I still do not quite understand how the "braid" one works...

I have an example to add to the "group marriages" section, a published fic example: "Vigilant," by James Alan Gardner! The planet most of the action is on, Demoth, sees group marriage as a perfectly normal though rather old-fashioned thing to do. Faye (the main character) marries her seven friends, and their marriage is throughout the book a source of much stabilizing influence and joy. It is SO GREAT. It was also, I'm pretty sure, my first introduction to positively-portrayed poly, and I will always be glad of it for that, too. I just love Faye's marriage SO MUCH.

And now I want to go reread Vigilant (which is brilliant for plenty of reasons besides group marriage) but I CAN'T because my copy is loaned out to a friend! TRAGEDY!

OH! And I almost forgot! Another of James Alan Gardner's books, "Hunted", has a different sort of marriage/romance system, for its main group of aliens, the Mandasars. They have various, mmm, castes, I suppose you could call them, though they're biological. And a family/hive is always made up of five Mandasars, of three castes: one warrior, one gentle, and three workers. They depend on each other pheremonally -- without hanging out with people of the other castes, they go mentally a bit haywire (in evolutionarily useful ways, yes, but not beneficial for a stable society). Once every 9 years when the gentle goes into egg-heat, and she and the warrior mate, but other than that they're pretty "mindboggling platonic".

The book doesn't ever attempt to queer Mandasar relationships, and only portrays "normal" ones, but I bet it would be pretty fun to try!

(James Alan Gardner is pretty great with writing books about nonstandard gender/sexuality. Though actually now that I think about it, he DOESN'T do any m/m or f/f....)
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
Oooh, WHICH ONES DO YOU HAVE? I am kind of madly in love with Gardner's books. He is SO GREAT and I could fangirl about them FOREVER.

Tale of the Five: NOW ON MY TO-READ LIST YAY! I will look forward to your future posts about them!

sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-08 05:34 pm (UTC)(link)
It is indeed the first book! And it's certainly less polished than some of his later ones, but it is still excellent. And introduces Festina Ramos, aka one of my favourite characters ever. And the other books are better if you've read Expendable and are thus already familiar with Festina's awesome, because she shows up in all the books in some role or another. It is too bad you didn't keep Vigilant, though!
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Oooh, someone else who loves Gardner! I think queering Mandasar relationships would involve mucking with caste. I guess the closest thing to queer Mandasar would be the scientist who um, castrated? herself.

Vigilant's central romance was f/f, although unconsummated?

Have you ever read Concomitant Hour?
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-10 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Eeeeee, hello, fellow JAG fan! Yeah, that would be the problem with queering Mandasar relationships. Or you could argue that the segregation-of-castes thing that happens in war situations (or with the recruiters) is a queering of their relationships? Or -- I wonder what would happen to their brain chemistry if only TWO castes hung out together? The book talks about the balance of having all three, and what happens if you only have one, but never what would happen with just two. That would be interesting to explore, I think.

HAH, yes, you're right, it is! *headdesk* I always forget to think of it that way, because -- agh, don't want to say any more, because I don't want to spoiler Melannen. But yes! Okay, that makes me happy.

I have indeed read Commitment Hour! And I have a whole post in which I talk about it, here! It is FASCINATING to me. Although I find Fullin annoying enough that it's not one of my favourites.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 07:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I think for Mandrasar caste==gender, y? So probably it would be awfully queer if you had two workers who like, really liked each other, and didn't want to add a third, or something. Or, like, what about warrior-buddies? I don't think Warriors are ever supposed to bond even socially with another warrior.

Also: YY re: Fullin. Man. Only the book's cleverness and mystery kept me reading, when I wanted to bonk him/her/ze over the head a lot.
sophia_sol: photo of a 19th century ivory carving of a fat bird (Default)

[personal profile] sophia_sol 2011-04-10 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, yeah, those would be fun things to work with!

Fullin needed a bonk over the head SO BADLY. A LOT of bonks over the head. And every time Fullin switched genders I'd be relieved, because I'd have managed to make myself forget how aggravating that version of Fullin was, and then I'd be like OH YEAH, DAMN. If the book had had pretty much anyone else as a main character, I think it'd be my absolute favourite of his books. But as it is...

Well, it does show that JAG does a good job of characterization? There ARE aggravating people in the world, and Fullin was an excellent example of one... (that's one of things I've always admired most about JAG, the differences he manages to imbue his first-person narrative with.)
mecurtin: I am on the lookout for science personified! (dinosaur science)

[personal profile] mecurtin 2011-04-08 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
The more I think about line marriage, the more dubious I become.

Line marriages, like most traditional marriages, are about *property*. And line marriages point up the problem with egalitarian poly marriages: there doesn't EVER have to be inheritance. A line marriage is more like a corporation than like marriage-as-we-know-it, and that does *not* lead to freedom.

The thing is, traditional polygynous marriages are not truly poly, because the wives are not married to each other. In a traditional (Mormon, Muslim, ancient) poly marriage, all the marriages end when the husband dies, and at that point the property *has* to go through an inheritance process.

In Heinlein's line marriage, there is no inheritance -- the marriage keeps going without control ever passing directly to a new generation. The *only* child of the line marriage who inherits, really, is the one who marries back in. And in a realistic world, that means that parents in a line marriage will try to pimp their children to their co-spouses, because the child who marries back into the line is the one who grabs the brass ring, who wins BIG. All the others are pushed out into the world, and you can bet that they never get as much (property, money, whatever) as they would if the marriage was liquidated every generation, as in a normal marriage.

mecurtin: Doctor Science (Default)

[personal profile] mecurtin 2011-04-08 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't have it on DW, because like a fool I haven't imported LJ entries from before April 15, 2009 -- and clearly it's not going to happen *this* week. Here's the blogspot version.

And yeah, part of the point in TMIAHM is that the youngest wife is a child of the family, and everyone is so proud -- Heinlein is trying to be all edgy about your stodgy incest taboos, but not paying any attention to the fact that this makes her the *heir*, and in fact the *only* heir -- all the other children of the marriage are effectively disinherited.
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[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart 2011-04-17 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Just commenting on the novel and the 'root'.

I think the notion is that because there is no inheritance, the marriage is focused on expending resources on rounding out the children. So that they can then marry into another line that also can properly round out children into adults.

Notice the 'capital' that the line has is durable and zero sum, but the labor are the people and if they don't manage the capital correctly, there will be losses of the capital.
beatrice_otter: Sarah Connor kicks ass--made for me, not shareable (Sarah Connor kicks ass)

[personal profile] beatrice_otter 2011-04-08 01:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you're putting too much emphasis on the "property inheritance" aspect of it. There are a great many people in the world today who aren't expecting a "great brass ring" when their parents kick off--who won't inherit any money or property besides a few things of sentimental value because quite simply the family doesn't have much. If there's no expectation of inheritance through death, things become quite different. Also, a line marriage has generations to accumulate prosperity--if you liquidated it every generation, I'm pretty sure there would be a lot less to go around than you are assuming, because there wouldn't be that time to accumulate. And how is marrying back into your own line any different in acquiring money/property than marrying into another line, which presumably also has money/property? Actually, what I can kind of see there is a sort of class/gentry system ala 19th century England where everyone is trying to "marry up" into the gentry, who rarely marry outside their own class. So a line marriage would be more willing to marry the child of another line marriage, because they have practical experience in how it works, than someone who didn't grow up in a line marriage, and lots of people want to be in a successful line marriage because it means both financial and emotional stability.

As far as inheritance goes, I'd imagine there's also a difference between real property--the expensive/valuable stuff that stays with the line--and personal effects--the stuff with mostly sentimental value that might very well get distributed among the kids when a parent of the line dies.
elf: Rainbow sparkly fairy (Default)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-09 10:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Been pondering this for the last couple of days. I think you're right; there's some serious problems with Heinlein's line marriages. I think the one(s?) in Moon is a Harsh Mistress are plausible enough for their setting--isolated colony, incredible gender imbalance, much non-renewable resources controlled by an external force. It's not so much a marriage, by normal human social standards, as a corporation with a lot of cuddling, and it wouldn't work that way in a less-artificially-constrained society. (Like, one where you can breathe the air without special equipment.) Social dynamics in prisons can be drastically different from those outside; the line marriage we see is an example of a prisoner faction.

But I could see something like line marriages in "normal" society--with something like dowries. A child of the marriage is cared for by the marriage during youth, and can wander off & Become An Adult without their support, but when he/she gets married, the line is supposed to provide a nest egg for the new couple. Or line. Or clan. Whatever. That covers the need to have families provide for external future growth, while allowing the line to gain wealth through long-view investments and the kind of socio-political power any longstanding coordinated group can have.

Theoretically, it could work better than nuclear-family inheritances; the marriage gets full inheritance when individuals die, and marriage-starter-packs for newly married children aren't as much of a drain on the line's resources. Also, the children who marry outside the line still have the option of calling on the line for help if necessary, which isn't possible after an inheritance by death.

Children who marry into another line would still get the nest egg, which would increase that line's wealth, but that goes both directions--new members of the line would presumably be bringing their own wealth. (In a culture that had these, as opposed to Luna where joiners of the line could be effectively destitute.)
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
heh: “corporation with a lot of cuddling.”

Children who marry into another line would still get the nest egg, which would increase that line's wealth, but that goes both directions--new members of the line would presumably be bringing their own wealth. (In a culture that had these, as opposed to Luna where joiners of the line could be effectively destitute.)

I think in this model, though, marriages would tend to get arranged, as they would presumably be highly strategic. You want to marry someone from a family that can give a nice golden parachute, and you would try to build strategic alliances in who your children marry so as to have the leverage to marry well yourself.
elf: Sea monkey family (Sea Monkeys)

[personal profile] elf 2011-04-10 10:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd expect a lot more arranged marriages, especially since marrying a line disrupts the whole concept of romantic love. New potential spouses would want a strong connection with at least one member of the line--but wouldn't be expected to love everyone equally. No idea how they'd deal with queer spouses; Heinlein dodged around all of that.

In the long run, you'd have something between a clan and a corporation; if there's no legal limits on the size of the "marriage," you could wind up with a continent being all controlled by a single "marriage." And of course, once it gets past a certain size, the "marriage" is a matter of paperwork, and people have pair-bonds of their choice inside the larger framework, and start making social & maybe legal arrangements for managing those. (I love poly-families, but I'm aware that most of humanity is always going to pair off.)
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[personal profile] willwrite_fortea 2011-04-08 04:06 am (UTC)(link)
:flails happily:

:offers you flowers and trinkets, because she really needed literature about romances and relationships not necessarily monogamous or sexual, etc etc for the upcoming summer months:

I'm in the middle of reading The Left Hand of Darkness, and I'm pleased to find out that the author's play with gender and relationships pervades other works of hers <3
lindentreeisle: Don- got tech? (Default)

[personal profile] lindentreeisle 2011-04-08 04:09 am (UTC)(link)
Love this post. I love Le Guin's ideas. She also does a lot with sexuality- for example the stories she's written where people become fertile in cycles and are only gendered while fertile; they "come into" fertility as the opposite gender of whoever brings them in. 'Kemmer' it's called. Remember those?

Joe Haldeman does something similar to line marriage in his "Worlds" series- it's originally invented as a way to restructure families as corporations for legal and tax reasons, and it kind of explodes into a whole way of structuring families and marriages. Each family kind of does things its own way; some are hetero mono, some use polyamory or polyandry, etc.

I also want to mention Courtship Rite which is an extremely cracked out book that is mostly about cannibalism but has group marriages with very weird courting rituals.

Sorry this isn't very coherent, I'm tired. Will have to discuss more when I'm not tired.
contrarywise: John Barrowman on Hotel Babylon, pondering. (Ponders)

[personal profile] contrarywise 2011-04-09 01:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm glad someone here mentioned Courtship Rite. I wouldn't exactly characterize it as being about cannibalism, although that's one aspect of the book that people seem to ping on strongly. At least there's a good reason for the cannibalism: nth-generation colonists are stranded on a really shitty world where there's no indigenous fauna except insects and most of the flora are seriously poisonous. So the only sources of protein available are bugs and other people. The group marriage featured in the book and the politics of the whole thing (generally creepy and brutal) are interesting, though.
lindentreeisle: Don- got tech? (Default)

[personal profile] lindentreeisle 2011-04-09 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)
It was a very general summary; I mentioned the cannibalism because that seems to be the social construct the book focuses on primarily, moreso than the group marriage aspect. :) Wasn't a very elegant summary from me, I agree.

It's a fascinating book. I've reread it several times, and I wish there were more stories in that universe.
contrarywise: Captain Jack Harkness, smiling (Smile!)

[personal profile] contrarywise 2011-04-09 02:52 pm (UTC)(link)
It may just be the crowds I run in, but the group marriage bit is what got more attention among the folks I know who've read it. Well, that and the secret society of cloned lesbian assassins. :)

It is fascinating, and the world-building is pretty cool. There's a high tech level civilization stuck on very low-resource planet with a hostile ecology. So you get fun stuff like cloning, cannibalism, and nasty fitness testing to promote high survival odds among the ones who make the cut.
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[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I've read (part of) Courtship Rite, and was wondering whether to bring it up; my take was that it was basically a group marriage with bonus trying-to-kill-you in the flirting stage.

I have my doubts about the mathematics of their protein sources, though. It seems a million times more efficient, to me, to breed bugs, (which can convert protein out of starches or, uh, somethin, I dunno, however herbivores do it) than to breed people, (who can more or less only convert protein out of protein). But then again IANAN (I am not a nutritionist).
feanna: The cover of an old German children's book I inherited from my mother (Default)

[personal profile] feanna 2011-04-09 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Not really related to the poly aspect of this post, except for one throwaway line about 3 being the ideal number of that culture, but on Babylon 5 the Minbari (alien race) were originally designed to be genderless/hermaphrodites (still visible in the makeup of the original pilot) and one of the challenges for the character who (spoilers?) becomes a human/Minbari hybrid was to be adjusting to HAVING a definite gender at all. Instead we get an episode about adjusting that's still nice and mostly about haicare (the Minbari are bald) and with bonus period joke (wich I can appreciate in my lower moments), but while it's not bad, seeing the original version would have been SO much more fascinating!
feanna: The cover of an old German children's book I inherited from my mother (Default)

[personal profile] feanna 2011-04-09 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
It IS a missed chance.

Though I think they decided against it as much because the makeup would have required so much more effort as there were many Minbari on the show as much as because they thought viewers might have difficulty with the concept. (My persona pet pieve is actually more that there are Minbari with beards, which is a but irrational of me, I know...)
I also REALLY regret that we never get to KNOW anything about Minbari romantic relationships, because there IS that line about 3 being their ideal (and maybe holy) number and the number becomes important in a non-romantic context once, where the people involved are the hybrid(female) and the two human men (who were originally one character, one of whom had a foreshadowing of a relationship with her, which we actually get to see with the second one, who is the one who answers "I don't think I'd be ready for that (or something) to her 3 allusion, and it's played more like a joke and never brough up again, but it WOULD have been fascinating to see that explored! (Especially as there's a character that's deeply in love with her, though I can't really see him as their third, even though she does love him too (she's his mentor), but I really don't need to summarise the series and what it DIDN'T achieve here, just agreeing with you point on preventing shipping wars somewhat differently.)


Also, I have this poly-Star Trek thing in my head that includes 6 to 9 people, of somewhat different ages and species, who aren't even able to spend all that much time ALL of them together because many (though not) of them are in Starfleet, some on earth, some on long missions, some rebuilding Vulcan, etc. and because of different lifespans, I've also been thinking what the longer living members would do once some of their partners are dead, which I started to think of during the line marriage part of your post. Because while I do think there'd be at least 3 of them left together, barring accidents, they COULD marry other people too!
I guess any marriage invoving more than a certain number of people as a collective (and not a constellation where a husband is seperate from the boyfriend, or something similar) and is eventually open to new members could exist for a LONG time, whether tied into economics or not.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Re: B5, and marriages, man, betcha it was shitty to be a Centauri woman if you didn't have all the sooper-tabulous prophecy powers. You're statistically likely to be someone's third wife.

(I guess it was probably shitty to be a lower-class Centauri man, and have all the women married to dudes who could afford them. Lotsa opportunistic homosexuality, mebbe?)
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[personal profile] ambersweet 2011-04-08 05:18 am (UTC)(link)
[personal profile] finch linked me to this, and I'm totally fascinated by some of these relationships I've never heard of before. :D

Could the auspistice role be filled by a BFF? Reading the description, I was totally reminded of Sex and the City.
cypher: (furocious pouncebeast!)

[personal profile] cypher 2011-04-08 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the character in canon who epitomizes the auspistice role (Kanaya) is very much the long-suffering best friend type, the one in the group who manages to be the voice of reason when everybody else is doing acrobatic pirouettes off their respective handles. (And who is secretly nursing a terrible red crush on the girl she has to auspistice for most vigorously.)

I think different flavors of BFF could probably work well in either moirail or auspistice roles, and that makes me sort of want to come up with a taxonomy of BFFery.
calvinahobbes: Calvin holding a cardboard tv-shape up in front of himself (Default)

[personal profile] calvinahobbes 2011-04-08 06:47 am (UTC)(link)
I love this post, and I have nothing to say, because I am too busy, but I'm glad I took the time to read.

[personal profile] whatawaytoburn 2011-04-08 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
I was prodding around my network and came across this. I'm terribly fascinated by this and want to play around with some of these c9oncepts badly. Granted, no one who knows me would be surprised by this but I am defi9nitely bookmarking this and saving it to be reviewed again tomorrow when I have had more sleep and can brain enough to try and plot things.
avendya: Amy Pond glares and is gorgeous. (Doctor Who - Amy Pond is prettier than y)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-08 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
Also, because I hate all the terms currently in circulation in the asexual community for the not-sexual-not-exactly-romantic-but-necessary-to-life partnerships, I am considering trying to sneak "moirail" into the discourse...

But some Googling tells me it is traditional to sleep with your moirail once, but only once, and AUGH PLEASE NO. (I have -- well, I'll use my term of choice, "queerplatonic" -- relationships, and I really do not want to sleep with them, ever.)
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Doctor Who - Eleven & Amy)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-08 07:32 am (UTC)(link)
Also, from the comments of the sedoretu fic:

Sherlock Holmes, the 2009 version, works perfectly for a sedoretu. Holmes & Mary are of the same moiety; as are Irene and Watson. (... Sherlock (2010) doesn't bother having enough characters for polyamory to work well, and I don't remember ACD well enough to comment.)

Also: the current Team TARDIS is such a sedoretu - Eleven and Amy are of a moiety (yes, I know, I am the only person in fandom who doesn't ship them), and Rory and River are of the other. Thus, Amy/Rory, Amy/River, River/Eleven, Eleven/Rory all work, while taking out the two pairings that don't work for me - Amy/Eleven and Rory/River.
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Default)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-08 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, that's perfect for Nyssa, Turlough, Tegan and Five! I am having way too much fun fitting every fandom I know into a sedoretu (if possible).

ACD Holmes, I think, is actually troll romance - Watson as morail (assuming you don't ship them, which I don't, in ACD-verse), Moriarty as kismesis, Mycroft as auspistice, and an empty space for matesprit (which seems appropriate for Holmes, somehow).

I just love the concept of sedoretu -- incorporating platonic friendships into marriage, polyamory, and queering marriage. (And I kind of want a sedoretu in real life -- it's just such a lovely dynamic.)

If morails are not supposed to have sex, I am totally on board with this idea. It's less clunky than queerplatonic, although probably less clear. I really love the concept of "pale romance", as long as (as stated in the intro to a fic I read) traditionally, morails have sex once and only once is not the case. (Clunk sentence is clunky, I know, but I think you know what I mean.)
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Default)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-08 05:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, but Irene's matesprit isn't Holmes -- it's her husband. (I totally buy the -- er, whatever books those were, spun off of Holmes, where Irene married Godfrey Norton for love.) It also works for the Mary Russell books -- Mary as matespirit, the rest as I said. (I see Mycroft as auspistice more than I see Lestrade, even in BBC!Sherlock. Sherlock doesn't like Mycroft at all, but there would be an empty place in his life without Mycroft. Lestrade I see more as a colleague+, if that makes sense.)
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Default)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-09 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, good point - I could be convinced into Godfry as moirail and Holmes as matespirit. In Mary Russell verse, though, Mary is obvious his matespirit. And I would love to see Irene's kismesis - someone, fic, now?

I am just going to sit here and admire the concept of pale romance. It makes so much sense! All of the truly ridiculous romantic gestures my best friend and I (my moirail and I) make to each other fit into a context, and <3 <3 <3 You are the greatest for this post, because this is so much fun.
avendya: Toph kissing Suki, captioned "bring on the femmeslash" (AtLA - bring on the femslash)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-09 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Watson is still his moirail. Mary doesn't really understand it, but Mary doesn't need to - and I think the relative lack-of-Watson hurts Holmes, because I'm sorry, just having a matespirit is not enough. Oh god you've got me thinking in those terms now.

Oh, yes, of course, it's the King of Bohemia. In Carole Nelson Douglas' books, Irene has a moirail; I believe her name is Nell? Admittedly, I'm not that fond of either the books or the character, so... (I'm about three books behind in the Mary Russell series, but until that point, her kismesis is definitely Moriarty's daughter.)

Who is Watson's kismesis? Moirail is obvious, as is matespirit; do we see any of his family for auspistice? Watson seems like the type to be close to his family, so there should be someone to fill that role.
Edited 2011-04-09 23:44 (UTC)
avendya: a women carrying a lantern (Stock - you are the lantern)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-09 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't read the Irene Adler books in years, but it seems like the closest we have for Irene? Or at least, in a canon, although I would really, really like to see Irene Adler and Mary Russell as moirails. (... no, really.)

Yeah, I can't see Moran -- although I can definitely see an editor as either moirail or kismesis, depending on the editor. :P I would put an alcoholic brother squarely into auspistice - neither lust nor liking seems appropriate.

Speaking of death: if one of your quadrant-people dies, can you get a new one, or are you left with an empty quadrant? For maximum angst, I want to give Watson a moirail in Afganistan who is killed. :P
avendya: The Eighth Doctor, captioned infinity in a grain of sand (black and white) (Doctor Who - infinity)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-10 04:26 am (UTC)(link)
I suspect I am mashing up ACD/'09 movieverse/Mary Russell/Irene Adler/Sherlock canon together, but I see Watson when he first met Holmes as very depressed and self-destructive. Honestly, why else would he attach so strongly to Holmes, so quickly? If Watson was stable and reasonable at the time, I suspect he would have tried to find alternate lodgings very fast. (Which makes Holmes a kind of horrible rebound relationship, but who are we kidding, Holmes/Watson was never known for being healthy.)

... and since I usually see Holmes as asexual, I feel like I have to ask: the extension to include asexual people is just the logical one, yes? While it seems canon that red romance seems to involve sex, but in my opinion, there's a difference between a non-sexual relationship with a moirail and a non-sexual relationship with a matespirit. And it is definitely possible to have FoeYay without sex, so that seems doable. A asexual sedoretu would seem to require replacing two or more standard sexual relationships with romantic asexual relationships, but that seems doable -- as I said, there's a difference between not-having-sex with a romantic partner and not-having-sex with your best friend. I suspect the problem would come with trying to figure out troll romance or a sedoretu for aromantic asexuals.
Edited 2011-04-10 04:29 (UTC)

[personal profile] curuchamion 2011-04-19 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
...Watson's heroic orderly who saved his life in Afghanistan. What the heck was his name again?!

(I am having SO MUCH FUN playing with troll-marriage sorts of things in my fandoms. *bounces*)
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (tv: the girl who waited)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Also: the current Team TARDIS is such a sedoretu - Eleven and Amy are of a moiety (yes, I know, I am the only person in fandom who doesn't ship them), and Rory and River are of the other.

!!! I APPROVE OF THIS. (I can read Amy/Eleven, but I don't love Amy/Eleven in a sexual sense, but I swear that either of them leaving would be like the worst divorce/widow(er)ing ever just in a not-sex way*).

You = brilliant.


*this is totally because they remind me of a very specific relationship I have, to the point that I will now yell at him "YOU ARE LATE FOR MY WEDDING" when I want to remind him he is loved. . . . we're Special, yes.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 06:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Because fandom-in-general doesn't understand the idea of a close nonsexual relationship.

. . . I am so glad I am not the only one who thinks this sometimes.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, I love 'ship-fic and falling-in-love stories, too? But I have like these handful of friendships that I am WEIRDLY POSSESSIVE OF as non-sexual relationships. Because there's no REASON for them to be sexual, it wouldn't ADD anything and in a lot of ways would screw up what they do have. Rawr.

Of course, at least four of them are the ones that EVERYONE ELSE insists are totes-shagging-all-the-time. :| /end-ranting-at-the-choir
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 10:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I hadn't - except wait, did someone post a "Severus Snape as ace" manifesto on there? *looks* Yes! Which totally wormed its way into canon for my [community profile] lilylives stuff that ambushed me (wtf WHEN AM I GOING TO CATCH UP O RITE NEVER), so yay!
recessional: a mouse attempts to keep hold of a human finger (personal; technical difficulty plz hold)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I remember my brain going THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE at it, and then yeah, taking it and sliding it right into the AU.

and you're allowed to write about how a relationship is asexual even if the characters in it aren't.

:| This is karma for me encouraging [personal profile] thatyourefuse's fic-bunny, isn't it. *siiiiiiiigh*

( . . . although I will have to analyse things enough to come up with a better argument than IT'S JUST NOT, OK, OBVIOUSLY. *snrk*)
avendya: blue-green picture of a woman's face (Default)

[personal profile] avendya 2011-04-09 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
You are definitely not alone! Dear fandom: not everyone wants to shag the people they love. Really.

logging in too much bother - Laleira_Granite

(Anonymous) 2011-11-26 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
WHOA, that is definitely not the case. I remember seeing a fanfic or prompt that had that as a premise, but it is not actually the case in canon.

The stories in question just wanted an excuse to write (probably very sappy) sexytiems with established moirail pairs.

So no, actually moirallegiance really is completely nonsexual.
ambyr: pebbles arranged in a spiral on sand (nature sculpture by Andy Goldsworthy) (Pebbles)

[personal profile] ambyr 2011-04-08 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, what about Octavia Butler's books? There's the five-way marriages in the Xenogenesis trilogy, with one male human, one female human, one male alien, one female alien, and one third-sex alien. Seeing those queered up would be interesting.

(Anonymous) 2013-05-31 07:51 am (UTC)(link)
Jumping into this two years later because it's a fascinating conversation:

The male/female alien pair are siblings born around the same time who grow up together, kind of like fraternal twins. The ooloi alien (third gender) doesn't contribute genetic material and comes from a different family line and combines material from the other partners, which then gestates in the female. Because this is set during an interspecies transition, there's a human couple involved too, a male and female, and so there are four sources of parental DNA. The offspring are born in pairs, one to the alien mother and one to the human mother.

But! They only connect sexually through the ooloi, and can't stand to touch the other sex for handwavey alien bio reasons. But they can touch their same sex partners and their unsexed children - children aren't born with a sex (every child is eta until metamorphosis). Adults and children usually guess the future gender based on appearance, pheromones, etc but aren't always right. Children have specially close relationships with the same-sex parent (male, female, or ooloi) and that's one indicator of future gender.
stultiloquentia: Campbells condensed primordial soup (Default)

[personal profile] stultiloquentia 2011-04-08 11:08 pm (UTC)(link)
What a kickass resource! I'm running into the "But I want ALL the ships!" dilemma in my current fandom, so clearly I'm going to have to give this some considerable thought.

I just read Le Guin's The Birthday of the World a few weeks ago, and it made me all bouncy and excited about, as you said to somebody else, social engineering sf. Yay.
scrollgirl: sg-1 v2.0 (sg-1 team)

[personal profile] scrollgirl 2011-04-09 02:42 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for explaining these canons; this is fascinating stuff! I started to meta about how the "SG-1" designation shouldn't be retired, that new members should be brought in as old members leave or die, and then realised that Team Atlantis fits the line marriage model even more so than SG-1.

Le Guin has been on my To Read list for years and years, and now I want to actually pick a book and start. Maybe Left Hand of Darkness?
apatheia_jane: text: today's weather is partly furious with occasional fits of rage (furious weather)

[personal profile] apatheia_jane 2011-04-10 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
That's... a really excellent way of describing LHoD. I approve. Also, no wonder it hit my happy place on top of the SF fascination stuff.
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
A point about LHoD is that LeGuin wrote way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth (and before anyone else doing anything like. I fangirl her pretty hard). So if you read it and think "This is neat, but a lit ___centric...", LeGuin has probably already wrote a short-story or essay in which she attempts to incorporate some of that criticism. Look for "Coming of Age in Karhide" and "Winter's King," or google for her essays.

(OMG she has a blog! *fangirls moar*)
verity: buffy embraces the mid 90s shades (Default)

[personal profile] verity 2011-04-09 02:42 am (UTC)(link)
I love this post SO MUCH! And I wish I had more things to suggest, but Heinlein's all I'm really familiar with. Well, I think there might have been some plural marriage in Joanna Russ's The Female Man, but it's been a while since I read that... (Recommend so hard, though!)
harpers_child: melaka fray reading from "Tales of the Slayers". (Default)

[personal profile] harpers_child 2011-04-09 02:45 am (UTC)(link)
i have bookmarked this for referring to later when i'm writing my SGA "no really these other culture are nothing like earth cultures, stop projecting your world view all over everyone in another galaxy" fic. because in a place where it's very likely you'll be eaten before your children are grown having a marriage involving lots of people makes sense, dammit.
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2011-04-09 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
Let me just reiterate that this is an awesome post. (And may even push me into actually reading Homestuck.)

"Stephen"'s life would get a whole lot less angsty if he could have a sedoretu. Either a group with three men in which the one woman is of his moiety, or a standard Em/Ef/Mm/Mf group in which he and the woman of the opposite moiety just never seem to find the time to sleep together, whoops, such a shame, but there's plenty of love and sexual fulfillment and emotional support to go around within the group.

And I'm trying to make Alucard/Integra/Seras/Pip work out, but it keeps collapsing back into "everyone wants to sleep with Integra." It almost works as Alucard/Integra, Integra/Seras, Seras/Pip, with friendly-loving Alucard+Seras and Integra+Pip...it's just that Alucard/Pip doesn't really work out. Although perhaps they could use the same tactic as that second "Stephen" option.

Are there any generalizations to be drawn from the original stories about characteristics of Morning people versus Evening people, or are you just saying things like "Molly Weasley is obviously a Morning person" because it sounds, hm, poetically fitting? (Not that I'm not going to go straight to the library tomorrow later today and pick them up anyway...)
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2011-04-09 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Awesome. That means I don't have to worry about editing the giant reconstruction of my ships through the sedoretu lens :D

(Added the word to Firefox spellcheck. Am enjoying far too much how nice it looks non-underlined.)

Totally writing out the story of my Hellsing OTS now, too =^_^=
sqbr: Nepeta from Homestuck looking grumpy in front of the f/f parts of her shipping wall (grumpy)

[personal profile] sqbr 2011-04-09 09:59 am (UTC)(link)
Oh wow I love this post. I'm actually not all that into AUs which write people as other species etc, but I am a HUGE fan of interesting alien attitudes to sex/gender/relationships etc so it was fascinating anyway.

With Homestuck: An Auspistice relationship has three people, not two. A keeps B and C's relationship stable, and the A/B/C triple is the relationship, not A/C or A/B. Fanon has a lot of Auspitices keeping kismeses etc from killing each other etc, but afaict it only comes up in canon as A stopping B and C from becoming kismeses in the first place (because B is already kismesis with D, say)

It's worth noting that Homestuck troll society is very anti-poly within each quadrant, and that this is one of the reasons auspitices are valued. Thus far there have been no poly troll relationships (from a troll POV) in canon, though there has been people having crushes on multiple people at once, and complicated feelings between exes who have new partners. Friendship (rather than being moirails) is kind of queer, I guess, it's certainly seen as strange.

Personally I would love if one of the trolls decided they were asexual in one or more quadrants, since there's no longer a death sentence on being single. There's certainly some who seem very unenthusiastic about finding a kismesis.
Edited 2011-04-09 10:03 (UTC)
sqbr: pretty purple pi (existentialism)

[personal profile] sqbr 2011-04-19 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
I do tend to read it as a three person thing from canon (though I tend not to agree with the way fanon extends it) but since I'm also not convinced that that actually works I can accept your interpretation :)

(Anonymous) 2011-05-30 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I know I am late to the party, but from the in-canon explanation the Auspitice is a negative relationship, meaning it's not needed to keep moraillegiances and matespritships stable; it seems to indicate that its main function is to keep new kismessitudes from occurring when someone already has a kismesis. That's how Hussie explains in it-comic, anyway. The negative could indicate one of two things: either the negative feelings are towards the person keeping the other two from killing each other (which in troll society doesn't seem ridiculous; they seem very much capable of strongly disliking someone without disregarding everything they say), or that person is "neutral" and the trying-not-to-get-killed person is the negative. But it's still negative in some way, so having them as a (postive) friend that manages the positive romances doesn't really make sense.

And I think it's pretty reasonable to take Kanaya as an example, given that she is the only example; it's the least-explored romance in the comics, with a set of guidelines put out that are never truly met. She may not be perfect but she's what canon gives us.

It's just... there's no canon account of an auspitice getting involved in a person's moraillegiance or matespritship, in canon or through what the author says. And since it's a platonic relationship (that, as is stated in the comic, involves three people) there's no real reason to believe it involves a person's kismesis. (The kismesises generally don't want to kill their partner anyway; their hate is fulfilling and killing them would be like killing their matesprit and would leave them without that quadrant filled.) Also, when two quadrants were specifically linked it was mentioned in canon: the kismesis and matespritship.

I'll also note that although ideally they want all four quadrants filled, most trolls don't seem particularly concerned with that quadrants, except maybe Kanaya; they're also significantly less concerned with moraillegiance, even though that is the only stable troll relationship among the kids we see. That's probably at least in part due to the fact that matespritship and kismessitude are considered necessary for reproduction, and if someone is unable to provide genetic material when the time comes they are killed. That's no longer an issue for the trolls in the comic, but those quadrants are still at the forefront of their mind. So, basically, the left quadrants are seen more or less as necessary, while the right two are more like highly desired. And, probably because the entire thing is seen through a human lens anyway, there's more focus with the kids on matespritship. Kismessitude is a close second, but aside from Eridan no one's actively looking into one, and Eridan's actively looking into all of the quadrants. All of them. (Though we do at least have a canon example that occurred before those trolls were hatched, now, even that one managed to fall apart. Although it was a pair of which half was a lawless pirate who probably had no trouble escaping the imperial drones, which is just as well, given that she appeared to have no matesprit for hundred of sweeps.)

/rambling but basically: auspitice is three people by canon, at least, and a negative, platonic relationship

I hope I don't sound like some angry lump of person, but you did say you didn't read the comic, and I have ingested the entire thing in under a month with near constant reference to the pages about troll romance.

[personal profile] zaluzianskya 2014-04-01 04:25 am (UTC)(link)
Hey! In this post you say you haven't read Homestuck, but that was like three years ago; has that changed? Because the canon page that describes auspisticism is pretty close to what you describe as the "fanon" version of it:
This quadrant involves a particular type of three-way relationship of a black romantic nature. Falling on the conciliatory side, it has no bearing on the reproductive cycle, except for indirect ramifications.

When two trolls are locked in a feud or some otherwise contentious relationship, one can intervene and become their AUSPISTICE. The auspistice mediates between the two, playing the role of a peace keeper, preventing the feud from boiling over into a fully caliginous rivalry.

Since such lesser feuds are quite common among trolls, there is a significant need for auspisticing parties. Without them, too many ashen feuds would become caliginous, and begin to conflict with other exclusive kismesis relationships, leading to a great deal of social complexity and sore feelings (even more so than black romance usually involves). Without auspisticism, the result would be widespread black infidelity.

In fact, your description of auspisticism is an unfortunately widespread fanon misinterpretation! I was wondering if you still had this opinion?
Edited 2014-04-01 04:25 (UTC)
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the greatest treason)

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Here through [personal profile] recessional...

... and oh my god, the Spooks team are a (largely) platonic line marriage! Lucas replaces Adam who replaces Tom, Ruth replaces Connie who replaces, well, Ruth the first time, who replaces Tessa, Ben replaces Zaf who replaces Danny -- and lots of others I haven't got to/been spoiled for yet, and the tricky question whether one line of descent runs Zoe-Fiona-Jo-Beth or whether Fiona was sui generis and then Ros came in as replacement for her -- but they're all Harry's People in whatever iteration. And also each other's people. (Even when -- as with, say, Ruth and Ros -- they would never ever interact at ALL if it weren't for being part of the same kinship group.)

And of course lots of little individual relationships within the network.

Oh, I'm just going to keep framing it that way from here on out.

(And, yes, fandom of one. Sorry. But that was an epiphany.)
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the card the dealers won't touch)

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
... and now my brain is actually trying to write that actual AU.

And is giving me a whole range of kinship terms for use therein.

Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the greatest treason)

God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't need another WIP! (This is not hyperbole. I really -- really -- don't.)

But kinship terms:

* Spouse vs. partner. Both imply sexuality and some sort of lasting relationship, but there are different levels of expectation wrt commitment and duration of sexual -- as opposed to friendly/professional -- relationship. (Adam/Fiona vs. Adam/Ros. Also, one strongly suspects, Harry/Ruth vs. Harry/Tessa, but this is where all my no-canon-basis ships come out to play.) There's also a word for someone who has sex with both partners in a spousal relationship at once but not separately, but I haven't worked out what it is yet. (Possibly Zaf was this for Adam and Fi. See above re. no canon basis.)

* Mentor vs. parent. Both intergenerational; mentor relationships can be and frequently are sexual, parent relationships never are. (It is, however, possible and common for your parent's partner to be your mentor.) Actual physical parents are called bio-parents, but that doesn't apply in this case except in re. Adam and Fiona to Wes. (Harry is everyone's parent. Tessa was Zoe's mentor; Peter Salter was Tom's.)

* Siblings. Pretty much what it sounds like; never have sex ever. (Tom and Danny; Ros and Zaf.)

* There also need to be words for people who have a recurrent but non-committed sexual relationship (Jo and Zaf), and for people who are really only married to each other via other people and don't have sex ever (or even always get along) (Ros and Ruth.)

I -- I think this wants its serial numbers filed off, is what it wants.

*puts her face in her keyboard and tries to die*
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the greatest treason)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)
*siiiiigh* Yes. It is a common complaint, that one.

And -- just -- obviously you're not going to have the same relationship with everyone in your family! You can't go around just having sex with everyone, because some people are your annoying yet reluctantly beloved little brother and some people are that girl your partner and his wife-who-died brought in who's all right, you suppose, and some people are your mentor's wife and completely inexplicable to you, and you don't even have enough time in the day to go to bed with them all even if you wanted to! But they're all still your kin, regardless.

(Also, obviously, if the serial numbers stay on, there is a Family Business that you join when you marry in, and this family's is Spying.)

(Also, Tom and Christine get a lot more interesting when you assume they're running around on their families instead of their countries.)

I haven't even read any Heinlein since I was thirteen, and I don't think I ever even picked up one of the Lazarus Long series! (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, yes, I liked that and the future-history short stories best.) I don't think I'm qualified to deconstruct him!
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the greatest treason)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
*giggles*

Well, when you put it THAT way. (Also, now I'm sort of sorry I didn't read the Long family stories when I was thirteen, because that aesthetic and me at thirteen sound perfectly suited to each other.)

I -- dammit. Dammit. *whimpers*
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Baby, take those serial numbers off and RUN WITH IT.
thatyourefuse: ([sp] the card the dealers won't touch)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
*cries tears*

TOO MANY WIPS. ERROR ERROR OUT OF CHEESE ERROR REBOOT FROM START...


... dammit.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
. . . . yeah, sorry, I am pitiless on this score. :D I have OBSCENE numbers of WIPs.
thatyourefuse: (Default)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
And this one would have OBSCENE numbers of characters, too.

Oh -- god.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

Re: God, I think about these things too hard.

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
DOIT DOIT DO IT!! Yay!
*shakes pompoms*
fenellaevangela: pink flowers (Default)

[personal profile] fenellaevangela 2011-04-09 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, this is a shiny, shiny post.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-09 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
here through rydra_wong

This is an awesome post! I second the sime~gen recommendation - that's one very good example of sexual mores determined both by biology and ethics.

Also, Fiona Patton's books have an interesting variation, though only for aristocrats. Every person has a same-sex companion out of Companion's league, who is supposedly teaching them subtleties of politics and relationship as well as spying on them. But the relationship between a companion and their charge is more often than not of intensely loyal love and mutual protection. "Regular" marriage is between to opposite-sex people.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-09 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I cannot say her works are in a must-read category, but definitely worth checking out - you may end up enjoying them as much as I did. I fell in love particularly with The Stone Prince. It is set in a medieval society, albeit with real magic yielded or channeled by rulers. The central figure of Prince Demnor is a very complex yet lovable kind of hero.
nagasvoice: lj default (Default)

[personal profile] nagasvoice 2011-04-09 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I have not read her work, but I have friends who recommend her highly.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

A bold request

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-09 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Can I translate your post into Russian and post the translation together with link of course to femi_fan community on LJ? It is a community of Russian-speaking female/feminist SF/F writers and fans, and I think your post will be of much interest and enjoyment to its members.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

Re: A bold request

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-09 11:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you! and of course the link will be tossed your way :)

I'll try and think of any that would be of interest and ask friends for recs.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

Re: A bold request

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-17 01:34 am (UTC)(link)
Unfortunately nothing really new came up. There are some descriptions of "free love and children are brought up by the state", matriarchal unions but everything is pretty much different shades of vanilla.
blades_of_grass: (Default)

Re: A bold request

[personal profile] blades_of_grass 2011-04-10 09:29 pm (UTC)(link)
http://community.livejournal.com/femi_fan/37460.html

I also posted it to my LJ so that other people may enjoy it (and possibly come up with examples of marriage systems): http://blades-of-grass.livejournal.com/187315.html Hope that's OK.

While translating and following links I found myself in a quandary: most of the fandoms are unknown to Russian-speaking fans. I ended up leaving most of the examples out, since they won't clarify anything and more probably will confuse the readers. Sorry about that - I suspect I should have rustled examples from known fandoms, but it was a bit too daunting a task, and I was afraid that my interpretation of how relationship works in the original is not complete.
dine: (booky - jchalo)

[personal profile] dine 2011-04-10 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
The Stone Prince is the first of several set in this universe (and the best, imo). The worldbuilding incorporates fairly standard pseudo-medieval details, but society's roles are (mostly) gender-neutral, for nobility at least. a Duke is a Duke, whether male or female, and you don't see things broken into "women's" or "men's" roles.

oddly enough, I'm just now rereading it - it's been ages since I first read it, and it's held up pretty well.
ciaan: (the bat-birds and the bat-bees)

[personal profile] ciaan 2011-04-11 03:59 am (UTC)(link)
What's-his-name who wrote Flashforward also wrote some books about Neandertals where they had separate female and male residential cities around the commercial and entertainment public centers, and all adults were expected to have a same-sex mate they lived with and an opposite-sex mate they had kids with. Those were separate relationships, not foursomes; your boyfriend's boyfriend wasn't necessarily with your girlfriend.
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-09 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
... I have written a Buffy sedoretu story but have been too shy to post it. I will now woman up and drop you a link as soon as it's up. Also, I love this post entirely <3
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-09 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, to skip out on genre entirely, How I Met Your Mother is completely supportable as a show about Lily, Marshall, and Ted trying to find Ted a nice Evening girl so they can all settle down. Even so far as extending the Le Guin-canon fictive kin names to Robin and Barney, as friends or partners who are part of the kin group but not the core marriage! (They are Aunt Robin and Uncle Barney to Ted's kids, which is completely Le-Guin canonical). I would have written this too, except that it's really hard to mash up sitcom writing and Le Guin and have everyone sound in-character.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2011-04-09 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi, you don't know me, but I would read the bloody fucking hell out of that fic. And I think you could mash it up! You just have to assume that sedoretu is just the default form of marriage instead of partner-marriage. (There would be self-help books!)
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-10 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
I posted the HIMYM snippets I have written, but god knows I'd love there to be a season-spanning epic someday, because I so ship it. Also those self-help books sound amazing.
thatyourefuse: (Default)

[personal profile] thatyourefuse 2011-04-09 09:15 pm (UTC)(link)
... oh my god, I would read that SO HARD.

(What's the grouping for your Buffy one?)
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-10 01:45 am (UTC)(link)
1) I posted the HIMYM snippets. God willing someday someone will take this ball and run with it.

2) I posted the Buffy one; I made Buffy and Giles Morning people, and Willow and Xander Evening people. (No matter where I put Giles someone made faces at me about it, but I figured he and Willow could at least index his books together and go from there.)
d_generate_girl: New Who - the TARDIS (though the road is long we journey on)

[personal profile] d_generate_girl 2011-04-10 02:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Here via [personal profile] thatyourefuse AND [personal profile] recessional and yes, I would absolutely read that HIMYM AU. I read the bits you linked to (Marshall's crack about NOT having Barney's babies made my night), and wow, it's just brilliant. Do you think you'll be doing anything more with it?
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-10 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Man, I want to! I think the problem that I keep running into is that Le Guin's sedoretu make a lot of sense for a low-density society that's mostly concerned with stability and farming? While HIMYM is such a culturally specific story about people living in a mobile wage-based society. So, like, would it be the same story if they were goat-herders who'd been to school and came home to herd more goats on their ancestral lands?

... And then I end up thinking about family structure and late capitalism for an hour and not writing any more story. Seriously, if anyone else wants to take this ball and run with it, I will be there with bells on.

(thank you again, melannen, for writing this post, btw, I had clearly been just burning to talk about sedoretu for months now. And now I have many more interesting-family-structure stories to read! I have read almost no Diane Duane, which is just criminal.)
brownbetty: (Default)

[personal profile] brownbetty 2011-04-10 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I like the way your brain works, gentlebeing.
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-11 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you, honored person!
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-09 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Ahaha, yes, that was me. (The Giles angle of the ship was controversial among my first readers, but I have just gotten the green light from my beta to post it, so I will be back in a second).

Also, I've been staring at my How I Met Your Mother bits and pieces for two months now and I have given up and posted them here. But oh my god, seriously, I've done one complete rewatch since the Sedoretu Theory was born, and it has so much canonical support. The Front Porch Test! All the stuff about Lily and Marshall finding the right other couple! The episode where Ted moves out and Marshall and Lily decide they want to marry him! I ship it so hard.
sapote: The TARDIS sits near a tree in sunlight (Default)

[personal profile] sapote 2011-04-10 01:40 am (UTC)(link)
1) Posted!

2) Oh my god, I love your Scrubs sedoretu! I love Doctor Cox and Jordan fending off the matchmakers, and your central sedoretu is just delightful.

... Man, I wish to see this now.

[identity profile] meatball42.livejournal.com 2014-04-21 03:23 am (UTC)(link)
*not from round these parts* Can haz link to Scrubs lovely, por favor?
zlabya: color art of a dark-haired young woman holding a scrawny Russian Blue cat (Default)

[personal profile] zlabya 2011-04-10 01:19 am (UTC)(link)
I couldn't even get past the first couple of sentences of the Troll marriage structure.

Love your critiques of Heinlein, and I love even more your love for Ursula K Le Guin's works. Her recurring themes of marriage, gender and social engineering/anthropology are major reasons she's been in my top 3 of authors for decades.

Speaking of social engineering, my major interest in this topic of types of marriage is the reason for developing each. One can't simply invent a new system because it's cool or fun; it needs to make social sense. Sedoretu does because of the Morning and Evening orientations of that people. Dyads would be possible, but making sure one had more or less equal amounts of Morning and Evening people would be more difficult. Also, having one parent of each moiety ensures one has a same-gender and opposite-gender parent in one's own moiety for empathy and modeling.

And I love your examples for the two fandoms I know of: Harry Potter and House.

Hmm, are there any fandoms I know of where a sedoretu story might be good? Now you've got me thinking.

[personal profile] w_thit 2011-04-10 04:45 am (UTC)(link)
Oh group marriage meta! This is gorgeous.

Just to add to the list, Star Trek has some of this, though they're in dire need to queering up:

In the expanded universe, Andorians have four genders; canonically, their marriages have four spouses, though Data did say that there were exceptions.

More in line with your post, Denobulans have open marriages which function more like networks than anything else. Each individual is expected to have three spouses (of the opposite gender, from how it was explained), and to have relationships with their spouses's spouses at the very least. There are 720 different socially acceptable familial relationships, 42 of them sexual.

Anyway, this was a fantastic post.
beccaelizabeth: my Watcher tattoo in blue, plus Be in red Buffy style font (Default)

[personal profile] beccaelizabeth 2011-04-11 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Star Trek Enterprise: A Night in Sickbay

Phlox I do have three wives.
Archer And they each have...?
Phlox Two husbands besides myself.
Archer Sounds very complicated.
Phlox Very. Why else be polygamous?
Archer So, these three wives...
Phlox Each have three husbands. A total of 720 relationships 42 of which have romantic possibilities.


Denobulans have a mating season, which increases aggression and need for medical treatment
episode 'Dear Doctor'

LUCAS [OC]: My dear Doctor Phlox, it's me again, Jeremy. I hope you are well. It's been a hell of a week here. Wall to wall emergencies and three midnight deliveries. It's mating season, so you know how that goes. I thought human reproduction was complicated. You Denobulans make us look like single-cell organisms.

PHLOX [OC]: Dear Doctor Lucas, sorry to hear about your difficult week. I know the rigours of mating season only too well. It might help to bear in mind that a dose of niaxilin can be quite effective in separating the two combatants.



and when one of Phlox's wives was flirting with a human

episode 'Stigma'

"Enterprise: Stigma (#2.14)" (2003)
[Trip feels that he is being seduced by Dr. Phlox' wife Feezal]
Commander Tucker: You gotta understand, I've been a perfect gentleman; absolutely nothing's happened. She's trying to... She's, she's, um... making advances, if you know what I mean.
Dr. Phlox: [intrigued] Sexual advances?
Commander Tucker: I'm afraid so.
Dr. Phlox: [delighted] Has she offered to give you a rose petal bath?
Commander Tucker: No, no. No, nothing like that.
Dr. Phlox: Oh, any man would be a fool to ignore the romantic overtures of a healthy Denobulan woman! Don't you find her attractive?
Commander Tucker: Oh, sure. I-I mean, no, she's your wife!
Dr. Phlox: What does that have to do with it?
Commander Tucker: She's your wife?
Dr. Phlox: Oh, nonsense! Nonsense! You're too concerned with Human morality. I thought you wanted to learn about new cultures. Isn't that why you joined Starfleet?
Commander Tucker: Why, of course it is! But I was brought up believing you don't play around with another man's wife. I don't think I'm ever gonna change my mind about that.
Dr. Phlox: As you wish. Your loss.



the interesting bit about this is that Phlox's wives each have two other husbands already, unless they've broken up in the intervening 10 episodes, so 'wife' don't mean quite what Tucker is used to even with the three.
archersangel: general trek icon. (trek)

[personal profile] archersangel 2011-04-12 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
i think deltans were more advanced sexually (llia said in the first movie that humans were sexually immature) so one might take that as them being polygamous and/or bi-sexual.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deltan

if i recall in the the original series novel dwellers in the crucible there were 4 deltan cousins (or maybe they just called themselves cousins?) that engaged in some kind of complex sexual play with each other.

about the andorians, memory alpha has this;
In noncanonical novels by Pocket Books, Andorians have the four sexes; zhen, shen, chan, and thaan. In function and appearance, zhens and shens are largely female, and chans and thaans approximate males, with shens and chans the more androgynous of the pairings.

i could've sworn they had more on how that all works for reproduction, but i can't find it now.

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