melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote,
@ 2010-01-16 03:46 pm UTC
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Current music:mc hawking - what we need more of is science
Entry tags:admin:bestof, fandom:fandom, fannish:meta, fannish:slash, living:science!, thinking:sex and sexuality
ETA early morning jan 18: a short follow-up with more poll numbers + things /ETA

I was going to wait and post this later, with a much more elaborate stastistical work-up, population variables and meta-analysis - because I think it's interesting in its own right - but the ongoing conversation I'm seeing, and the extremely clear result I'm getting, is making me think it's more important to get the facts out there, than to make them pretty.

So: Are slashers straight?

I spent an afternoon and evening finding all of the polls & surveys of slash demographics I could that included a question on sexuality. Some I already had bookmarked, some I found through google, delicious, and following citations in academic papers. I'm sure there are more out there, and if you have links to more more polls I would love to add their data to my analysis. But you know what? The results of the ones I've found are pretty consistent, across a large range of survey population. And it is, to be quite honest, not the result I was expecting, even as a slasher who does not herself identify as straight, and is used to finding people like her in fandom.

Are slashers straight?


I present to you the raw numbers on sexuality for the 10 polls & surveys I could find results for, plus several more I could only find references to.

You'll note that there are a variety of categories used for sexuality; for the purposes of the meta-analysis, I am counting as "straight" any poll answer that was straight, heterosexual, primarily heterosexual, heteroflexible, or direct equivalent. I am using "queer" as shorthand for everybody else, including people who self-identified as bi-leaning-straight, questioning, and asexual. (You'll also note that the polls that included options beyond gay, straight, and bi had *significant* numbers of participants choosing them, something you might want to consider in general when talking about fans' sexuality. Just fyi.)

I only listed gender statistics for a few of the polls. That's because I'm lazy, and the way LJ polls work, separating out the responses by gender wouldn't have been terribly meaningful without a lot of annoying hand-collating anyway, so for the record: any poll with no gender statistics here either had no gender question, or over 90% self-identified women respondents. As this analysis is mostly meant to address the question of slashers' sexuality, I'm leaving gender identity unexamined for the quick'n'dirty version. (Though I'll note that only one of the polls had options specifically involving non-gender-binary people and orientation. Other possibilities, fandom: they exist.)

http://www.libraryofmoria.com/jsr/part2.html#21
2003
Library of Moria, a LOTR fic archive
Participants: 275
Heterosexual: 124
Mostly Heterosexual: 39
Bisexual: 84
Mostly Homosexual: 0
Homosexual: 10
Undecided: 6
Non-sexual: 2
Percent identified as queer: 37%

http://rushlight75.livejournal.com/38193.html
2003-10-14
Pre-metafandom, but widely distributed through its precursors
Participants: 1000
Male: 26
Female: 974
Only result available is an average Kinsey Scale rating: 1.8
(which kind of comes out to 40% queer, but not really)

http://idroppedarice.livejournal.com/59133.html
7-28-2004
Harry Potter slashers, by way of Fiction Alley Park
365 participants
straight: 173
bi: 119
gay: 22
undecided: 49
Percent identified as queer: 52.7%

http://lavinialavender.livejournal.com/179885.html
4-28-2005
locked, but currently available through Google's cache; mostly HP and anime slashers
participants: 203
straight: 85
gay: 8
bi: 73
Confused: 36
Percent identifying as queer: 54.6%

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/242137/results
2006-2-13
posted by Proserpina "For the yaoi girls", but I have no idea where it was linked/promoted.
total: 43
heterosexual: 23
homosexual: 1
bisexual: 11
pansexual: 2
asexual: 1
unsure: 5
Percent identifying as queer: 53% 47%

http://hederahelix.livejournal.com/259632.html
6-29-2006
Mostly the metafandom crowd; specifically slash-focused.
Participants: 402
Heterosexual: 35
Heterosexual but slasher: 62
Bisexual, but heterosexual in practice: 102
Bisexual: 128
Bisexual, but queer in practice: 26
Lesbian, gay, queer, etc but slasher: 30
Lesbian, gay, queer, etc: 19
Percent identified as queer: 76%

http://wisdomeagle.livejournal.com/931805.html
February 2, 2007
Mostly the metafandom crowd; not all slashers - includes het & gen fans.
469 participants
straight women: 206
bi/omni/pansexual women: 186
lesbians: 56
asexual: 30
Straight men: 10
bi men: 5
Gay men: 3
Percent participants who identify as queer: 59.7%

http://jadelennox.livejournal.com/265022.html
Feb 7, 2007
A small poll of one fan writer's circle, not specifically fandom-focused:
Participants: 35
straight: 8
gay: 1
bisexual: 10
sligtly bisexual (kinsey 1 or 5): 9
other: 5
Percent participants who identified as queer: 71%

http://sailorptah.dreamwidth.org/11270.html
Feb 13, 2008
Mostly the metafandom & anime crowd, but not specifically fandom-focused; a freeform survey which emphasized complex & fluid sexuality
Total participants: 71
Identified as some subset of queer: 60
Percent participants who identified as queer: 84.5%

http://kleenexwoman.livejournal.com/248586.html
2-12-2008
Mostly the metafandom crowd, but with some exposure outside it
Participants: 577
gay: 25
bi-leaning-gay: 47
bi: 62
pan: 76
bi-leaning-straight: 84
straight: 192
asexual: 37
other: 23
no labels: 31
Percent identifying as queer: 66.7%

Polls whose results are not included in this analysis:

There are two other polls on FAP, but they were free-response threads and I'd've had to collate the results by hand, which I didn't have time for: http://forums.fictionalley.org/park/showthread.php?s=f041f722f3998ddd1bfbc6055d650507&threadid=19455&highlight=slash+survey and http://forums.fictionalley.org/park/showthread.phps=f041f722f3998ddd1bfbc6055d650507&threadid=133998&highlight=slash+survey

...it's on my list.

[personal profile] skuf ran a poll through metafandom sometime in early February, 2007, which was deleted, originally at: http://skuf.livejournal.com/132143.html . The only data I could find was a reference that it was "running closer to just 35% saying they are "strictly het".

I found several fandom demographics polls pre-dating 2003, but none of them had a sexuality question, which is interesting in its own right. (I suspect that the farther you go back in slash's history, the less likely it is that we would have even dared to ask these questions, and the less likely we would have gotten accurate answers, if we did. And in a time when fanfic was getting a *lot* of flak from the straight world, presenting an image to outsiders of "ordinary housewives" was important. I think the time when we need that protective image is fading.)

Finally, Wikipedia's reference for saying that "polls claim most slashers are heterosexual women", which has propagated everywhere, is Anne Kustritz's paper "Slashing the Romance Narrative", first published in the Journal of Amercan Culture in 2003, available in pdf here: http://www.laurientaylor.org/research/sources/slashfic.pdf . She, in turns, cites three informal fandom essays in her fandom demographics section, which is only a small part of the paper - those three essays are no more or less rigorous or inclusive than the 11 I have analysed here, note. The first is a clearly parodic essay on the Sith Academy, http://www.siubhan.com/sithacademy/criticalintro.html , which uses no poll or survey data, and does not even touch on the question of slashers' sexuality (despite Kustritz' citation implying it does.) The second is given the URL http://www.apps4.vantagenet.com/zpolls/count.asp?rlt=91221204045&id=91221204045 , which was a poll of the Darth Maul Estrogen Brigade in 2000. It is no longer available online, nor can I find any other references to it remaining online. The second was at http://www.sockii.com/ma/criticalintro.htm ; it is also no longer online, and I can find no details on it whatsoever except the date given of 1999, though the URL + the other references in the paper strongly imply that it was limited to TPM fandom, like the others.

(I will also note, because it seems worth noting, that the demographics section of that paper was very strongly trying to make the point that slashers are NICE WELL-ADJUSTED WOMEN WHO ARE NOT DEVIANT OR SCARY, so I am inclined to think the author had a bias toward categorizing slashers as heterosexual, especially as she uses the phrase "mostly to totally heterosexual" in the passage with the citation, but does not qualify heterosexual anywhere else. There is a lot of wiggle room in "mostly", as the variety of categories in the polls I listed above demonstrate. ...also, I @#$%&^@$ hate wikipedia's goddamn paternalistic notability and citation rules, since it means those two ten-year-old Phantom Menace polls somehow turned into GOSPEL TRUTH on the way to the printing press.)

So, over 9 polls, in a variety of slash subfandoms from the late-teens yaoi set to the mid-thirties meta fans set, dates ranging over 7 years. Only onetwo polls had less than 50% queer participants, and that wasone of them the earliest one, and even they were at 37% and 47%. The median percent of queer participants was 59.7%, and the mean was 61.5% 60.8%.

SO when people say things like "slash fans are appropriating queer experience", what THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS, WHO IDENTIFY AS QUEER hear is either "you aren't queer enough, your queer identity isn't real" or "male voices are the only ones qualified to speak for the queer community."

I think the question of how queer women can appropriate queer men's identity, and the damage that can be done when gay men speaking about themselves are drowned out by women, are valid discussion topics, and worth addressing. That is not a conversation that is going to happen as long as THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS, WHO IDENTIFY AS QUEER, are being erased from the discussion. fyi.

And SO when people say things like "slash is a legitimate way for straight women to express their sexuality", what THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS, WHO IDENTIFY AS QUEER hear is either "you aren't queer enough, your queer identity isn't relevant" or "straight voices are the only ones qualified to speak for the slash community".

I think the question of how straight women's sexuality interacts with queer sexuality, and the ways straight women's sexuality defines slash, are valid discussion topics, and worth addressing. That is not a conversation that is going to happen as long as THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS, WHO IDENTIFY AS QUEER, are being erased from the discussion. fyi.

Can I say that one more time? I like saying it. Science makes me happy.

THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS IDENTIFY AS QUEER.

ETA: People in comments have pointed out math errors that change the numbers slightly: I've added corrections in the relevant places. The conclusions still stand, however (for now.)

ETA 2 early morning jan 18: a short follow-up with more poll numbers + things /ETA 2


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sailorptah: Books (books)


[personal profile] sailorptah
2010-01-16 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Have I told you today that I like you?

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 09:17 pm UTC (link)
No, but I like you too. :D (your survey post is still one I go back to and read over every so often.)

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sara: S (S3)


[personal profile] sara
2010-01-16 09:11 pm UTC (link)
presenting an image to outsiders of "ordinary housewives" was important

Hell, I certainly get a huge amount of cover, both online and off, out of publicly presenting as a housewife who spends most of her time wibbling on about how adorable her kids are.

(They are adorable, mind you.)

Also, gold stars to you for tracking this stuff down.

Last edited 2010-01-16 09:12 pm UTC

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 09:21 pm UTC (link)
I think the difference in experience between queer people who can present as ordinary housewives, and queer people who can't, is valid. But that doesn't make the queer identity of women married to men, or the heteronormative oppression they face, or the coping mechanisms they use to survive it, invalid - and I think the fear of getting shot down as "not queer enough" has been suppressing a lot of discussion of just how queer slash fandom is. Which I wish we'd been having.

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naraht: "The combined total of everyone's indiscretions was known as Swinging London" (Simon Napier-Bell) (beatles-Groovy)


[personal profile] naraht
2010-01-16 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Fascinating post. Thanks for running down these numbers. I think they'll provide an important basis for the next part of the discussion.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 09:23 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I kept wanting to comment on posts, but as soon as I started compiling numbers I realized I was working with a different set of data than everyone else had. So getting this out here was important, even if only so people can punch holes in it, or so they can get more demographic information *out* there.

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ithiliana: (Bofur!!)


[personal profile] ithiliana
2010-01-16 09:23 pm UTC (link)
Fascinating: I'm impressed you tracked down that many polls.

And I'm also wondering if more straight women are m/m original fic than is the case with slashers; and it's interesting (by which I mean maddening) how many people conflate the two which is very problematic.

Good work!

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I really suspect that it is true, based on anecdata that most of women I know who write m/m for pay are straight (or at least, straight as far as I know.) As I'm really not involved nor interested in that segment, though, I would find it entirely possible that my assumption is based on invalid stereotyping.

I came in to this thinking, "Well, maybe my metafandom circles are mostly queer, but surely the younger and less political fandoms, like HP and anime, are mostly straight - except wait, they're notorious for having lots of young bi and lesbian women in them. Well, I bet older, less mainstreamed fandoms - no, wait, HH and Voyager and Hercules/Xena were all known for large queer female contingents, weren't they, and I've heard anecdata for others. Maybe non-internet, con-going fandom is where all the straight women hang out - no wait, slash cons are notorious for f/f hookups. ... ...." So I'm pretty hesitant to make assumptions.


But I couldn't find any hard data for the pro-m/m community - I suspect, unless there's a poll someone can dig out, the only way to do it would be to either check a bunch of author bios individually, or for someone in the community to run a survey, and that would pretty contentious in the current climate. Though the only anecdata I've got is that the demographics of the pro-slash panel at con.txt a few years ago were not notably different from the demographics of the con as a whole. Which was pretty darn queer.

It is true that most of the loudest voices on that side of the argument identify as straight, but that might be because (for a variety of reasons) the queer women are less inclined to speak out.

Last edited 2010-01-16 09:39 pm UTC

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isis: Isis statue (statue)


[personal profile] isis
2010-01-16 09:43 pm UTC (link)
I think I have answered a number of polls in what may be contradictory ways. I don't identify as queer. If the choice is, queer or not queer? (I think it was [personal profile] torachan had such a poll in the last few days) I am in the not queer camp. I, myself, don't think I'm queer enough to be queer. But on the other hand, if the choice is along a Kinsey scale (and I think I answered that one, too) I'm about a 1 or 2. I guess what it is is that I hesitate to identify as straight; okay, I'm bent, but my degree of curvature is pretty slight.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:33 pm UTC (link)
I think that's a major issue on these polls, how they categorize people who are in the grey areas, which is why I emphasized self-identity.

And for the polls/surveys which did leave a possibility of identities like yours, if a person's answer was heterosexual-with-caveats, I counted them under straight. Though I do think that the large proportion of self-identified only-a-little-bit-queer women is an important part of slash fandom as a queer community. Edit for clarity: and what I meant to say in this paragraph, and didn't, is that I put them into "not queer" not because I was trying do determine who was queer enough, but because I wanted to be as conservative as possible. Putting those numbers into the other category, which was tempting because that's an important part of discussions of slashers' sexuality, would've pretty dramatically raised the averages.

And I think part of the reason for the steady upward trend is that a lot of people who are bi-leaning-straight or bi-but-in-a-het-marriage have become more willing to use a queer label as it's become more obvious that fandom is a community where those sorts of identity choices are accepted.

(My answer on a Kinsey scale question is NO. So I'm pretty sure I put in varying answers to some of these too.)

And thank you for mentioning [personal profile] torachan's poll! More data!

Last edited 2010-01-16 11:34 pm UTC

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lapin_agile: (flash, in_a_flash, so_outa_here, speed_force)


[personal profile] lapin_agile
2010-01-16 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for making these points: (1) in many discussions of what women mean and do when they write about men having sex, there has been a very odd/troubling/significant erasure of the majority of slashers identifying as queer; (2) there may be historically specific explanations for this erasure; and (3) it's past time for academic work on slash to upgrade its research methods in order to generate better data on which to base its analyses, and it's past time for academics and the rest of us to keep sharing and recycling citations to early 'studies' that have disappeared into the mists of internet history and cannot now be consulted.

Oh, and thanks for queering the conversation because, yes, it would indeed seem that the majority of slashers identify as queer.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I didn't really make it as clear as (I am now wishing I should have) but the real impetus for this post wasn't even so much the slash & gay lit controversy, as the "don't forget the queer slashers" posts that got comment after comment of "sure, *most* slashers are straight, but *my* circle isn't".

Us queer-identified slashers are just as likely to assume the default slasher is straight - I thought so myself until running the numbers, despite having seen many of the polls before - and that really bothers me.

I've love to see some really good meta about why the community has clung so hard to the straight-women conception, in absence of any verified data, and in contradiction of what we see around us every day.

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fenellaevangela: text: Kirk & Spock & Bones & some guy in a red shirt. (Star Trek)


[personal profile] fenellaevangela
2010-01-16 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I haven't been following this discussion very closely, but I find these numbers interesting.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I find them interesting on their own merits, quite apart from the issues in the discussion that prompted me to work them up. (I haven't been following that discussion as closely as I could either, tbh.)

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damned_colonial: Convicts in Sydney, being spoken to by a guard/soldier (damned colonial)


[personal profile] damned_colonial
2010-01-16 10:16 pm UTC (link)
One thing which occurs to me is that you should write this up a little more formally and submit it to Transformative Works and Cultures, which should then make it cite-able on Wikipedia, I think.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:36 pm UTC (link)
But... but... that would be *work*!

(I'm thinking about it, depending on how well this first round of peer review shakes out. Of course, anyone who wanted to could write about it for TWC and the data could still go on wikipedia!)

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katealaurel: Sepia sketch of a young woman with loosely pulled back long hair, looking pensive. (brown drawing)


[personal profile] katealaurel
2010-01-16 10:20 pm UTC (link)
(Here via [personal profile] flourish.) This is terrific, and I love that you tracked down the numbers. Go, science, go!

One quick thing, though: you did the math backwards on one of the polls.


http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/242137/results
2006-2-13
posted by Proserpina "For the yaoi girls", but I have no idea where it was linked/promoted.
total: 43
heterosexual: 23
homosexual: 1
bisexual: 11
pansexual: 2
asexual: 1
unsure: 5
Percent identifying as queer: 53%


In that poll, it's 23/43 = 53.5% heterosexual, 46.5% queer.

But! The data on the whole is very compelling, and for that specific one, I even think the fact that it's the "the late-teens yaoi set" could be significant. Are there strong statistics on what age, at average, young women start self-identifying as queer, if they do?

Anyway: this rocks!

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:24 pm UTC (link)
Oh, crap, you're right. Too many numbers! Too late at night!

That drops the mean to 60.8 or so and leaves the median unchanged; I'll go in and add corrections to the post.

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happydork: A graph-theoretic tree in the shape of a dog, with the caption "Tree (with bark)" (Tree (with bark))


[personal profile] happydork
2010-01-16 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Yes. Thank you. This is such a valuable post -- my queer slasher friends and I have been discussing this as, "Hey, they're erasing us, which is weird because our circle is pretty damned queer -- still, I guess we're self-selecting or something, right?"

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it was the fact that pretty much everyone talking about being a queer slasher was saying "I must be self-selecting" that made me shout "To the science-mobile!"* last night.

I think we are self-selecting: we're self-selecting slash fandom. And that's something pretty important.

*I do not actually own a science-mobile. Though there is a CARDIS I can borrow.

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azurelunatic: cameo-like portrait of <user name="azurelunatic"> in short blue hair.  (_support, cameo)


[personal profile] azurelunatic
2010-01-16 11:05 pm UTC (link)
I recall the Sith Academy mailing list denizens as having our fair share of LBTGQ people, quite a few lesbians and bi women. Would be interesting to ask on the husk of the mailing list.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:26 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, Sith Academy is not one of the groups I've stereotyped as straight women (and there's really nothing in that essay which even plays on the stereotypes associated with straight slashers.) The bit she cited to that essay was "Slash communities, made up almost exclusively of overeducated but underemployed heterosexual women who are oppressed not only by patriarchy but by their employment status".

Which, the Sith Academy essay is an awesome bit of satirical economic/feminist analysis of Sith Academy, so I guess she was only citing it for the last clause; and it's not her fault that nowhere in her paper was it clear the essay she was citing was parodic - and I've done plenty of sloppy citing in my time, too, and got a thrill out of slipping in satire as the real thing. I don't condemn the sloppy, I just wish it didn't get so perpetuated. And from the people I still see around who were Sith Academy people, I suspect they would object strongly to being called "almost exclusively heterosexual".

(I do have a whole rant about how too much of modern academia - in the hard and the soft sciences - seems to aspire to medieval scholasticism when it comes to citation. But that's a whole 'nother rant.)


Seeing the actual data on the two Master/Apprentice polls would be nice, too, though I wouldn't be surprised if the trendline goes back and the numbers are close to or belowe the Library of Moria one. (I'm not sure that would reflect an actual change in demographic so much as a change in what people are willing to publicly identify as, though.)

If I do write this up more formally, I'll probably be trying to contact some of the people who might have data from the lost polls; they're mostly still around. (I wonder what kind of result you *would* get shooting a poll (or an oral history request!) through one of the mostly-quiet mailing lists of ten years ago. I know I haven't bothered unsubscribing to any...)

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(no subject) - [personal profile] azurelunatic, 2010-01-16 11:57 pm UTC (Expand)
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azurelunatic: cameo-like portrait of <user name="azurelunatic"> in short blue hair.  (_support, cameo)


[personal profile] azurelunatic
2010-01-16 11:12 pm UTC (link)
And let me see about whipping up a survey that might in some accurate and reasonably sensitive and sensible way measure these things.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Oooh, yay! Yeah, it's been a few years since the last big one. (I think survey!fail salted the ground on demographic polls for 2009.)

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sasha_feather: Retro-style poster of skier on pluto.   (ski pluto)


[personal profile] sasha_feather
2010-01-16 11:16 pm UTC (link)
This was so incredibly cheering and heartening to read. :D

Last edited 2010-01-16 11:18 pm UTC

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Science! :D

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cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (darksphinx)


[personal profile] cathexys
2010-01-16 11:28 pm UTC (link)
FWIW, one more from 2003 and using a mostly popslash crowd (199=69% self-identify as queer)

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cathexys: dark sphinx (default icon) (darksphinx)


[personal profile] cathexys
2010-01-16 11:28 pm UTC (link)
Duh: it'd help to c&p :) http://pop-tarts.livejournal.com/156748.html

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(no subject) - [personal profile] melannen, 2010-01-16 11:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] cathexys, 2010-01-16 11:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] melannen, 2010-01-16 11:29 pm UTC (Expand)
cypher: (right beside you)


[personal profile] cypher
2010-01-16 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much for this post. ♥

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:49 pm UTC (link)
Welcome!

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cofax7: climbing on an abbey wall  (Climb - default)


[personal profile] cofax7
2010-01-16 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Fascinating!

I had wondered how it was that so many of the slashers I know, who are lesbian or bi, were invisible to the common wisdom that slashers were straight women.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:52 pm UTC (link)
I think it's another example of "common wisdom is neither of those."

The first time I met a large group of slashers in person, it was really clear that this was a space where queer was normalized (and I loved that,) and I think in my brainstem I've been assuming slashers are queer until otherwise informed at least since then. Somehow it didn't penetrate to my analytical brain until now, though.

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waywren: Sad bunny and sadder pet (BUNNY)


[personal profile] waywren
2010-01-16 11:35 pm UTC (link)
SO when people say things like "slash fans are appropriating queer experience", what THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS, WHO IDENTIFY AS QUEER hear is either "you aren't queer enough, your queer identity isn't real" or "male voices are the only ones qualified to speak for the queer community."

...thank you.

Thank you so much for saying that. I've been vaguely following this--more or less involuntarily considering the contents of my various friendslists/circles--but I wasn't able to articulate how it made me feel.

As a bisexual woman, I already get 'you're not queer enough, you're just a slut/you're just playing/you're straddling the fence so you don't get hurt.' So this ... really resonates.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'd like to say that my initial response to people erasing queer fans is "Screw you! I exist!"

But actually, my initial response is, "Oh, I probably shouldn't speak up, I'm not really queer enough."

Which ... screw you, little voice in my head! I exist!

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(no subject) - [personal profile] waywren, 2010-01-16 11:44 pm UTC (Expand)
loligo: Scully with blue glasses (glasses)


[personal profile] loligo
2010-01-16 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Science FTW!!

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Science!

(speaking of science, ps: I love your username very much.)

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(no subject) - [personal profile] loligo, 2010-01-17 01:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] melannen, 2010-01-17 01:59 am UTC (Expand)
threewalls: threewalls (mc)


[personal profile] threewalls
2010-01-16 11:48 pm UTC (link)
THE MAJORITY OF SLASHERS IDENTIFY AS QUEER.

Thank you for doing the numbers on this. So much.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-16 11:54 pm UTC (link)
I keep dancing around in circles saying that phrase to myself. It makes me happy!

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jest: (I dressed myself)


[personal profile] jest
2010-01-17 12:44 am UTC (link)
Amen to this!

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-17 01:49 am UTC (link)
Truth!

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darthneko: purple cartoon bunny ([personal] purple bunny)


[personal profile] darthneko
2010-01-17 12:53 am UTC (link)
I was linked here by [personal profile] jamie and I just have to say - THANK YOU. I've tried to stay as far away from this whole debate as possible because a) it raises my blood pressure and b) all I kept hearing was "straight women shouldn't appropriate the gay man experience!" to which I, as a lesbian, kept going "...um. That's awful darn binary for the broad strokes you're painting with it."

So thank you. This is another one of those topics where I don't think anyone who's in a bunch about it is ever going to be satisfied, but not blatantly ignoring a good half of my slash-writing circle of acquaintances would be a good start.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-17 01:52 am UTC (link)
Yeah, the discussion's migrated a fair way from where it started (and some of the straight female slashers have been at least as bad) but really, "queer" is a large part of slashers! Talk about how badly they're oppressing you, too!

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eisen: Painted lady (a face in the crowd). (have a gay old time.)


[personal profile] eisen
2010-01-17 12:58 am UTC (link)
These numbers are amazing! I myself keep falling into the trap of assuming my circle is self-selecting the same way, and it's interesting how that assumption has very little basis in the numbers, and how it's such a prevalent meme even in the face of facts.

You keep being smart and clever and saying things that I think are really important to have heard, so I am subscribing to you and providing access because most of what I say is under flock and based on your behavior hereabouts on journals of friends I trust you with that. This in no way has to be reciprocal! But you are awesome, and it's high time I stop just reading you via network and make my appreciation visible on my userinfo.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-17 01:46 am UTC (link)
Subscribing yay! Though I can't promise I won't suddenly descend into fail and/or lurkerdom.

(I need to go through and add a bunch of people I've been reading on network, I keep putting it off.)

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monanotlisa: (alexis! - ugly betty)


[personal profile] monanotlisa
2010-01-17 01:05 am UTC (link)
Rock on - numbers! Figures! Math! :)

(Not about quantifiable elements, but dude, all the false dichotomies in certain assumptions made me shake my head. Even if a lot of slashers really are middle-aged house-wives, that wouldn't in any way, shape, or form mean they aren't also queer.)

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-17 01:24 am UTC (link)
One almost begins to suspect that some of the people assuming the dichotomies *don't* think middle-aged housewives (or middle-aged virgins, which is my subset) can really be queer.

But that would just be being bitter and cynical, right?

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(no subject) - [personal profile] monanotlisa, 2010-01-17 01:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] maevele, 2010-01-17 08:34 am UTC (Expand)
trobadora: (words)


[personal profile] trobadora
2010-01-17 01:07 am UTC (link)
Here via metafandom's delicious - thank you so much for digging up all those polls. It's really heartening to see the results.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-18 05:40 am UTC (link)
I am glad to inform people of true truth. Yes.

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kiwikiwi: (ToV: Okay! That's wonderful! H-Haha!)


[personal profile] kiwikiwi
2010-01-17 01:47 am UTC (link)
Thank you for the work that went into this; it's very heartening to read.

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melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (daydreaming, default)


[personal profile] melannen
2010-01-18 02:50 am UTC (link)
I am heartened by the positive response, too. hooray!

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