melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)
melannen ([personal profile] melannen) wrote2010-09-09 09:17 pm

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Hi all! I am working on a Fanlore entry (I figured it was past time), and am running into the fact that terms that I thought were established don't seem to give Google results for anyone but, um, me. Pretty much.

So, I thought I'd try a poll. :D

Poll #4330 On terminology
Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 74

When I am talking about the novels, animated series, comics, web extras, role-playing games, audio dramas, and so on that are authorized by a particular fandom's owners but are not part of main canon, I call them:

View Answers

11 (14.9%)

11 (14.9%)

secondary canon
25 (33.8%)

"tie-ins", duh
51 (68.9%)

11 (14.9%)

0 (0.0%)

just plain non-canonical
9 (12.2%)

Better than canon, usually
5 (6.8%)

Expanded Universe/Extended Universe/EU
37 (50.0%)

gray canon
4 (5.4%)

authorized fanfic, or something else involving the word 'fan'
14 (18.9%)

Different terms in different fandoms, and I'll go into detail below
12 (16.2%)

I don't.
6 (8.1%)

7 (9.5%)

I am going to talk about this in a comment.
6 (8.1%)

This concept needs a fanlore entry of its own.

View Answers

59 (100.0%)

0 (0.0%)

If there's a fannish term I use a lot, and a few of my friends do, and I really find it useful, but hardly anybody else uses it, I should:

View Answers

Try to avoid using it on Fanlore and similar places
4 (7.5%)

Use it on fanlore, and hope somebody else decides to make an entry for it eventually
9 (17.0%)

Make an entry for it (or add it to the relevant entry) in hopes that it will become more widespread
40 (75.5%)

ETA: I am also interested in whether people include things like interview canon and behind-the-scenes extras, drafts and outlines and subtitles, things someone involved with the production once said informally, prop canon, and merchandise packaging under the same umbrella as authorized media tie-ins, or consider them a different level of canon, and whether different terms include different things to them. But I couldn't figure out how to phrase it as a poll question in a way that wasn't overcomplicated.

People are invited to add comments expanding on this!
staranise: A star anise floating in a cup of mint tea (Default)

[personal profile] staranise 2010-09-10 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
Under "paracanon" I also include things like "the author said on her messageboard that after the last book, characters X and Y get married"

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[personal profile] lotesse 2010-09-10 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
I've always heard/used the term "paracanon," but now that I think about it I'm actually kind of dubious as to its connotations. By including/modifying the word "canon," the term does privilege the described material.

"Authorized fanfic" is a much more - hrm - leveling term. Though it doesn't account for author babbling or anything like that.

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trouble: Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it (Default)

[personal profile] trouble 2010-09-10 02:10 am (UTC)(link)
I like things in HP like "Interview Canon".

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eisen: Ohtsuka (be very quiet, I'm writing porn). (read the warning label carefully.)

[personal profile] eisen 2010-09-10 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
I said "I would expand on this in detail" only the problem is I am at a loss for details - I know I use these terms, and they're not interchangeable, and I use them specifically because one works for one fandom better than another, but I don't remember clearly or well which goes where!

... although I know I call, in the case of FIREFLY, the THOSE LEFT BEHIND comic a "tie-in" and everything else "authorized fanfic" because that one feels like a fully-realized FIREFLY story and the others don't and that's how I separate them in my head. I call the STAR WARS stuff alternately "authorized fanfic" or "EU" interchangeably and consider them about equal in that case, whereas I would bristle at making the same correlation for the BABYLON 5 novels I own - I don't know why, but there you go. I don't even register the novels that have been written using comic book characters as canon or fanfic; they exist, I don't have a name for them.

As for interviews, scripts, I would consider that stuff "canon" but as - well, I believe [personal profile] petra put it best - in all my fandoms, canon exists for me in a quantum state, occupying multiple states of being and relevance as the case suits, and only in observing it at that moment does it take on a definite shape as it relates to that moment, uhm ... whether I count it as important at the time I'm working on something fannish about it is another matter entirely.

In fact, poking at my head, perhaps a large part of what I find compelling about canons are characters or situations that exist in a self-contradictory paradoxical state of being; half the fun of it is in the canon's attempt to or refusal to create synthesis out of the presented thesis and antithesis - and the other half is that the synthesis is not constant, it shifts. (It's another way of stating that old acafan chestnut about how some fans like stories that are "incomplete texts", perhaps, but the emphasis feels different? I can't put a finger on it.)

Okay, maybe not so much at a loss after all.

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[personal profile] eisen - 2010-09-10 04:07 (UTC) - Expand
vehemently: (Default)

[personal profile] vehemently 2010-09-10 02:29 am (UTC)(link)
Here via network. Although I haven't seen most of the terms you use above, I can understand all of them in context. I do differentiate between a tie-in in a different medium, a detail given away in interview, and a detail that's from cut scenes or extended footage. That last category I would call gray canon, because it's almost canon, or could be canon in a different light. The Previouslies-that-contain-new-footage and web-only extras on BSG are gray canon, for me.

Whereas the interview/message board details and the comic-book tie-ins and official fan magazines would not rank as almost canon. I haven't used that word before, but I would probably call them paracanon: they surround and comment on the canon the way that an index or a footnote -- a paratext -- acts on a text. But they're not canon.

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damned_colonial: Convicts in Sydney, being spoken to by a guard/soldier (Default)

[personal profile] damned_colonial 2010-09-10 04:14 am (UTC)(link)
1) I think it's worth a wiki article

2) if you don't know what to call it, use whatever term wins here, and if people want other terms on the wiki that can happen... it's a *wiki*, stuff can be renamed and redirected and moved around, no big deal. "Be bold!" as they say in Wikipedialand.

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[personal profile] franzeska - 2010-09-20 14:44 (UTC) - Expand
erinptah: (Default)

[personal profile] erinptah 2010-09-10 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
I only use "EU" for fandoms in which that's an established term, like Star Wars. Otherwise, I just say "secondary canon."

To my mind, "tie-ins" includes all the things you listed, but also covers items like board games, which don't seem relevant to the category you're interested in. To have a Tie-Ins article that only talked about secondary canon would be like having a Fruit article that only talked about melons.

I vote you title the article Secondary canon, and then make redirects for a few of the other terms.
theletterfour: Text only: For I am BATMA... I mean... the Dark Lord (Default)

[personal profile] theletterfour 2010-09-10 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, my tickybox answers are weird for this one. In general I don't talk about tie-ins or extra-canonical things, although in general if asked for the term, I'm likely to say tie-ins.

Although I don't really like the term tie-ins, and for the fandoms I do talk about non-canonical licensed stuff, extended universe seems like a better term.

But I also ticked other and it depends, because for DC Comics, I talk a lot about the DCAU, which has its own name - although what, exactly the DCAU *is* is difficult for me to name. I think I like both extended universe and secondary canon.

I also like the term elseworlds, but I don't know that it really fits the concept outside of comics fandom.
jadelennox: Senora Sabasa Garcia, by Goya (Default)

[personal profile] jadelennox 2010-09-10 05:18 am (UTC)(link)
I don't have a word for it, and I wish I did. In different fandoms, of course, it's too fuzzy for a simple word; a DW fan, for example, might think of a Big Finish audio production as canon, even though it's *legally* not.
cheyinka: A sketch of a Metroid (Default)

[personal profile] cheyinka 2010-09-10 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
Generally I have "canonical" and "noncanonical" plus whatever name the copyright holder uses for the "extra" stuff, since if it's not straight-up canonical, there's probably some name for it. I think if I had to make one up on the spot I'd go for quasi-canonical or semi-canonical.

(There's a game I help run where only a very small subset of the books in the associated series 'count' as canonical, and I tend to refer to the others as "apocryphal". I imagine if it were the other way around (all the books, plus some things written by other authors, count), I might call those other things "deuterocanonical". But that's not a term I've actually used.)

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holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)

[personal profile] holyschist 2010-09-10 06:46 am (UTC)(link)
I use "EU/Expanded Universe" for Star Wars only. Everything else I use "deuterocanon" (I don't even remember why, but I think this may be a joke from back when I was in Good Omens fandom?) or "optional canon" (I view the EU as optional, too).

I do consider interviews, behind-the-scenes, etc. to be optional canon. Technically on a less canonical level than more narrative optional canon, but in practice, all optional canon is stuff I feel no qualms about ignoring if I don't like it.

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naraht: (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-09-10 10:43 am (UTC)(link)
In Star Trek, the novels etc are "tie-ins" as far as I know. "Canon" is only the stuff that's onscreen. Scripts, props, interviews and so on are definitely not anywhere near canon.
aethel: (Default)

[personal profile] aethel 2010-09-10 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
google tells me "expanded universe" is used to describe only Star Wars stuff.

I would call them "tie-ins," but the actual relationship of the novels/comics/radio plays/whatever to canon varies considerably: Star Trek tie-ins are not considered canon. Star Wars tie-ins are theoretically supposed to be canon, but I don't know if the prequels followed that rule. Doctor Who, IDEK.

I've seen interview canon, props canon, and grey canon (on Fanlore). I've seen "apocrypha" (probably on Fanlore) as an umbrella term for details whose canonicity is uncertain.

Really the thing to do is find a comm devoted to DW paracanonical whatsit and see what they call it.
aethel: (Default)

[personal profile] aethel 2010-09-10 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Turns out fanlore has an entry for extended universe that would apply to Doctor Who. But if DW uses a different term, by all means create a separate wiki entry!
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[personal profile] mecurtin 2010-09-10 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I call it "deuterocanon" or "deuterocanonical", because I am just that nerdy.
epershand: An ampersand (Default)

[personal profile] epershand 2010-09-10 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Here via network.

I feel like there's two separate concepts here, the extra-canon works themselves, and the information about characters and situations that comes from them. I'm quite happy with "tie-ins" for the works themselves, but I agree that there needs to be a separate term that is equivalent to "fanon" but for tie-in books, radio plays, etc.

The clearest instance of that separation for me is Star Trek fandom, where we have Memory Alpha to store canon knowledge from the tv shows and movies, and Memory Beta to store knowledge from non-canonical licensed sources. (See, RIGHT THERE I could have used a shorter term for "knowledge from non-canonical licensed sources.")

As for the term itself, "paracanon" appeals the most to me. "Extended Universe", to me, is a term specific to Star Wars, where the Extended Universe is an internally-consistent set of licensed novels with a coherent arc outside of individual books, as opposed to Star Trek, etc, where there is no effort to keep the books in line with one another and you can pick and choose. (This makes Memory Beta especially fun--it's odd to read a wiki entry that conflicts with itself because it's trying to incorporate ten variant background stories)

Actually, no. "Apocrypha" appeals the most to me, but possibly Bible references are in poor taste, even if they're meta-biblical.
epershand: An ampersand (Default)

[personal profile] epershand 2010-09-10 11:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Um, yeah, no matter which term picks up currency, I think I'm stuck with "apocryphal canon" in my own head.
amaresu: Sapphire and Steel from the opening (Default)

[personal profile] amaresu 2010-09-11 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
I don't like terms such as tie-in, authorized fanfic, and such because it gives the impression that the only extra stuff is in book/written format. Leaving out a ton of stuff. But that's me.

I enjoy using expanded universe because it better encompasses what the extra stuff is. It's stuff that adds more to the universe of the thing and thus expands it. It's a really nice and compact term that gets the point across with the minimum of fuss.

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[personal profile] lady_ganesh 2010-09-11 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
Expanded Universe = Star Wars
Tie-ins = authorized things that are clearly not part of the main canon/storyline
IDEK = Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, with at least four overlapping and contradictory canons (and then there's the b/w comic run and its weird little AU issues), Doctor Who/Torchwood, etc.
originalpuck: Crystal Renn, fat woman submerged to hips in water, running her hands through it. Exposing cleavage. Morgan on it. (Default)

[personal profile] originalpuck 2010-09-11 02:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I use different terms for different fandoms/concepts.

For Star Wars, expanded universe is the common term, ime.

I tend to use tie-ins only for things like tie-in novels and the like, and even then, only if I'm talking to a bookstore clerk or something.

Apocrypha is a term I've seen bandied around my corners of Trek fandom, and is something I use for all non-canon Trek info (including tie-in novels). It's what I use to generically refer to non-canon fandom info for everything but SW: interviews, games, animated series, etc.

If I'm talking about a published fandom novel in particular, I tend to refer to it as, say, Psych profic. It's general category would be apocrypha, but if I were referencing the book itself, it would be as profic. Like, "I just finished the Psych profic novel, 'Mind Over Magic'. I know it's apocrypha, but guys, the part about xyz has made its way into my own personal canon."

* I found this poll through follow friday.
franzeska: (Default)

[personal profile] franzeska 2010-09-20 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I'd probably lump a lot of the interviews and behind-the-scenes stuff under "Word of God", assuming we're not talking about RPF fandoms. I'd probably count most drafts and notes and that sort of thing the same way.

Things like endings the director shot and the producer changed or packaging text on action figures would really depend on the exact franchise we're talking about. It could be canonical, totally 100% not canonical, or some specific flavor of extra/para/extended/etc. terminology.
franzeska: (Default)

[personal profile] franzeska 2010-09-20 02:25 pm (UTC)(link)
FWIW, 'paracanon' as a noun sounds just fine to me, but 'paracanonical' sounds less nice than 'extracanonical'. In the absence of tons of fans using the terms in a standardized way, I suspect lots of people are just coining whatever sounds good on the spot every time they discuss these things. Or people mostly only discuss them in the context of fandoms that already have specific terminology.

As for googling, AFAIKT, 90% of people I know in fandom do their best to turn off every possible sort of indexing. My journal is always all over the results for anything I'm searching for simply because I'm one of the few who doesn't.

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